Party Conference 2006
I shouldn’t be pelted with pies for asking difficult questions
‘But what was it all about?” said a kindly woman on my left as I arrived late for dinner last night in Bournemouth. “I mean, what did you actually say?” she asked, as I slumped into my chair.
I felt like a wrung-out dish cloth. It was like being a survivor of the Jalalabad gulch. For a whole 10 minutes I had been dandled before the maniac eyes of the media King Kong. This way and that it had prodded me as it roared its incomprehensible roar and bathed me in the terrifying afflatus of its nostrils, and at the end of the experience, frankly, I was just as baffled as my friend.
What was it all about? I stared at my plate and tried to collect my scattered impressions. All I could remember was having a quiet time at the Tory conference, and round about tea time I was in the press officers’ area, borrowing a computer in order to crunch out a piece for the Times Higher Educational Supplement. I was composing a particularly tricky passage when I became aware of a sort of Apache whooping outside. A mob was gathering. They started drumming their feet.
They started calling my name and bashing on the tinny little partition wall of the Tory press officers’ zone. Then they started thumping on the walls. Then to the sound of rhythmic chanting a ladder appeared over the top of the wall, and the red eye of a TV news camera was trained on us; and at this point the sweet Tory press people said would I mind hurrying up and finishing the piece, because the whole thing was getting a bit Gordon at Khartoum.
So we went outside and immediately they not only started yelling for me to “apologise!” and “resign!” but also to eat various cupcakes that they thrust under my nose.
Eh? I said. What is the story, exactly? And they said that it had been a very slow news day, and that I had said four atrocious and unpardonable things, and they shrieked them unintelligibly into my ear.
I have now been able to consult the morning papers, and to grasp the charges. But I find no gaffes, my friends. I find pure unvarnished common sense. I find important questions of political philosophy, and instead of trying to answer them everyone thinks it’s much more fun to shut down the debate and scream “gaffe”.
I was accused of being rude to the Scots and saying that a Scot could never become prime minister. Rubbish. I repeatedly said how much I adored the Scots, but that it was difficult in the current constitutional circumstances to see how Gordon Brown – sitting for a Scottish seat – could command the loyalty and support of the English electorate.
It is increasingly felt to be unjust that English MPs can be outvoted by Scottish MPs on very controversial questions affecting their own constituents, when they have no corresponding say over health and education and other questions in Scotland – and when the Scottish MPs have no say over those questions in Scotland itself! I said that Gordon Brown, sitting for Dunfermline, must address this if he wants to be prime minister. If that is a gaffe, then heaven help us all.
Then I was accused of being provocative in prophesying that parts of Bradford might have sharia law.
Balderdash. I was drawing attention to a theoretical problem in the localising agenda that we all support. Not only was there a risk that the NHS would become even more balkanised, I said, but you could imagine in a totally devolved system that Islamic zealots might take control of some inner-city area. I was illustrating the classic difficulty of any federal system: that a local majority may do something disapproved of by a national majority. Is that really such a blooper? Especially when I went on immediately to say that the experience of running councils and levying taxes might be a great thing for often alienated Muslim communities, since they would have a real stake in this country and its good government. Is that so frightful? Of course not.
Well then, they screamed in my ear, I was in the soup for my attack on booster seats for 11-year-olds. I will not repeat the argument, but let me summarise by saying that you could regulate with a far lighter touch.
Of course there will be good parents who want to use every possible precaution, even when the risks of not using a booster seat are very small indeed. Surely the best thing would be to have an information campaign about the potential benefits of these seats, rather than impose booster seats wholesale on the entire population, wasting police time and causing total chaos for schools who want to take children of varying sizes on trips. Is that such an epic clanger? Come off it, folks.
And finally I was pelted with pies for having allegedly dissed Jamie Oliver, when the whole point of what I was saying was in support of what he is trying to do. All I said was that it was hard to persuade the kids to eat the lovely healthy stuff when they still had the option of the chocs and the crisps in the packed lunch. One possible solution was to go the whole hog, I suggested, and have a completely paternalist approach in which you bring back mandatory school dinners – delicious, Jamie-style liver and cabbage – and stop kids eating anything else at school but what they are given.
The reason the mothers were posting the pies through the fence is that there is still total confusion about who is in charge of the school meal, schools or parents, and Jamie’s campaign won’t work properly until that ambiguity is cleared up.
I was elected to ask difficult questions. These four “gaffes” conceal very big and very deep issues of democracy and accountability: the West Lothian problem; the consequences of true federalism and localism; the boundary between voluntarism and compulsion in health and safety; the shared role of parents and state in children’s diet.
Sometimes I have an answer, sometimes only part. In all cases we need much more debate and thought, but all my beloved press chums want to do is chuck pies and yodel. I suppose it’s been a long conference season.
193 Comments
Bwa [Ed: not appropriate ...]
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Jaq:
I have inserted a link to here at:
http://tinyurl.com/ncz46
Comment is free (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/)
was featuring this thread as top five in best of the web last Friday.
BlackMike: Nicely put(he said, snidely, looking down his patrician nose at the tiresome gimp)
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‘Steven_L occasionally brings up some good points (but seems to find it impossible change his mind about anything)’ (Woemanster)
I’m only 26 and haven’t made my mind up about anything yet. I see you guys as helping me (make my mind up that is). I’ve been pretty bored recently, and in truth haven’t got a great deal to say about anything at the moment. It’s always good to hear other peoples opinions on international politics though.
What are we supposed to be talking about again? Whether Boris should be pelted with pies for saying what he wants?
Well I thought Boris was an incredibly good sport when that wretched student in Edinburgh tipped a pint of beer on his head earlier in the year. I’m sure he could take a few custard pies without losing it. I also very much doubt he would have punched that egg-thrower if he had been in John Prescotts’ shoes.
But truth be known there are politicans I would much rather see have pies thrown at them. I’d prefer to see Boris on the government front benches fending off the oppositions’ attempts at intellectual pie-slinging and telling us what he thinks more often.
If I could see one politican put in the stocks and pelted with the preverbial custard pie it would have to be Tessa Jowell. I choose Ms. Jowell above all others for that hideous sales pitch she embarked on, on behalf of all the UK’s casino bosses. That one where she leaned across the roulette table and began encouraging the electorate that throwing their money down that bottomless hole was a good thing. I couldn’t believe it when a Labour Minister uttered that games of chance ‘shouldn’t just be the preserve of the rich’ as if Casino bosses refuse entry based on income; what tosh!
That sickening photoshoot summed up New-Labour for me, it was about then I decided that they had to go before they ruined us all.
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Singularly Issued – oh yes, thanks for that it looks an interesting site. I’d heard of it but not checked it out – will do now.
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I am simply devastated to have missed all the drama!
not to mention a chance to show off in front of the Guardian. Dammit, next time you get press coverage can’t you email me or sumpin’? I hate missing an opportunity like that, and I’m sure, given time and Google enough, I could come up with something witty and moving about how those pies were misdirected and should have been served to the homeless rather than wasted in such fashion. Bugger.
Besides, everyone knows it’s beer that’s good for hair.
Robert, I’m glad to see you posting here. You’re both eloquent and cutting, my favorite combination.
newmania, you’ll love blogging. You need only post three or four times a week, really, although your regular wordcount in the blogosphere indicates that coming up with material won’t be a big challenge for you.
idlex, thank you again for your kind comments.
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Hmm, I got here too late to read all the pointless insults flying around. Funny how these discussions often end up sinking to the schoolyard level. Maybe some people were fed too much junk during their formative years?
On Boris: well done. Good to know someone has the guts to actually say something when speaking, these days – even if on seemingly secondary issues. Please come to Canada and set our politicians straight.
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raincoaster – you didn’t miss much but the Troll thought you were wonderful. How about commenting on the issues Robert has raised? I’m a bit pushed this evening but I’m sure you could add something?
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Not a chance. I’m two weeks late on some freelance work and money is in short supply. One tries not to blow off all opportunities.
karen, there’s no hope for our politicians. If Boris can grab Harper by the belt loops and pull his head out of Bush’s butt, that would be progress, I suppose, but it would take quite a yank, so to speak.
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Jaq: Mental health is another subject on which I don’t feel qualified to speak – although perhaps I should. My own mother suffered severe and largely unresolved depression from when I was about 8, spending several years in the local “loonie bin”, as that ghastly relic of a Victorian mental institution was known. Since then it’s been converted into a large development of upmarket flats, many of the residents unaware of its grim past.
Most of the patients went around stuffed to the eyeballs with valium and mogadon to keep them quiet. Ma should never have been there; the great majority of patients were real “nutters” (sorry to use such an un-PC expression but you’ll know what I mean – the mutterers, dribblers and Napolean impersonators). It was all rather frightening when I went to visit her as a boy.
The one humorous moment came when we were waiting to see her doctor in a room where other patients were drifting in and out. After some time, the door swung open and man in white coat and stethoscope strode in. As we rose to greet him, he held out his hand with a “Hello. Have you had a bath? I have!”.
Her plight wouldn’t happen today, so at least there has been some progress.
As for your own circumstances, I agree that this monster known as the NHS can only improve with, as you put it “small state, more local descisions and more support for the family”. To which I would add the private sector playing a bigger part in surgical matters. That is why I’m beginning to like what I hear from the boy Dave.
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Of one thing we can be certain .Had Idlex been at the Globe to advise Shakespeare on coherence the result would have been vastly improved ……. (newmania)
I strolled over the Globe for a copy of Hamlet, and glanced through it. Here’s a bit from the opening of Act 3, Scene 2:
HAMLET: Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to
you, trippingly on the tongue: but if you mouth it,
as many of your players do, I had as lief the
town-crier spoke my lines. Nor do not saw the air
too much with your hand, thus, but use all gently;
for in the very torrent, tempest, and, as I may say,
the whirlwind of passion, you must acquire and beget
a temperance that may give it smoothness. O, it
offends me to the soul to hear a robustious
periwig-pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to
very rags, to split the ears of the groundlings, who
for the most part are capable of nothing but
inexplicable dumbshows and noise: I would have such
a fellow whipped for o’erdoing Termagant; it
out-herods Herod: pray you, avoid it.
Oh dear… Where does one begin? First of all there’s an obvious typo in the third line: he must have meant ‘life’ rather than ‘lief’.And I had to look up ‘groundlings’ in my dictionary – it means the spectators in the cheapest seats. And any talk of termagents would soon have raincoaster rinsing out your mouth.
And what’s Hamlet on about, anyway? As best I can make out, he’s complaining about the poor performance of his fellow actors. It seems they have been shouting out their lines so loudly that they’ve been deafening even spectators at the back of the house. One wonders about the condition of those at the front. Stretchered out?
It is almost as if one was watching an episode of Cracker, when Robbie Coltrane suddenly stops it all, and asks his fellow actors to speak their lines more naturally, not bellow them out like sergeant-majors on a parade ground. Normally this sort of thing becomes an out-take that doesn’t appear in the finished production, but in this case it has been mystifyingly left in, like a mechanic’s screwdriver on the back seat of a recently serviced car. i.e. very sloppy.
In short, this entire passage quite obviously shouldn’t even be in the play at all. Much like my shopping list shouldn’t be in this posting (Bread, Lurpak spreadable butter, bacon & egg sandwiches, super-soft loo rolls, and whisky).
I could go on. But all I will say is: Thank goodness this Shakespeare chappie isn’t posting comments here.
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Idlex, after Shakespeare, posted:
‘Nor do not saw the air
too much with your hand, thus, but use all gently; for in the very torrent, tempest, and, as I may say,
the whirlwind of passion, you must acquire and beget
a temperance that may give it smoothness.’
Sounds like Clinton teaching Tone the Clinton Thumb.
‘O, it offends me to the soul to hear a robustious
periwig-pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to
very rags, to split the ears of the groundlings’
And whatever else you do, Tone, no more follicle implants and avoid tub thumping like Prezza and Gordon.
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Idlex, with a diet like that no wonder you need extra-soft loo rolls. Whatever happened to Izal Hard?
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This is off topic but seriously awful: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1819640.ece
“Police and social services may be exempt from death-in-custody Bill….
The police and other official bodies could escape prosecution for the death of people in police custody, army barracks or prison or local authority care, if exemptions to a new Bill are agreed this week…….But civil liberties campaigners warn that the list of exemptions, if agreed, will allow many government bodies to escape prosecution for gross negligence.
They fear that under the Bill there would have been no redress for the family of eight-year-old Victoria Climbié, who died following the failure of social services to intervene in her case, or for the family of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian who was shot by the police on the London Underground last year after being mistakenly identified as a terrorist suspect…….
The civil liberties group Liberty said: “These exemptions give the impression that the Government has listed all of the circumstances where the gross negligence of state bodies could cause death and has asked its lawyers to provide a get-out clause for every one of them.” etc
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PaulD – yes, you’re right, there has been progress. In the 60′s and early 70′s they used to put women on Valium and Librium for having a bad headache – they used to call everything female ‘nerves’. A colleague of my fathers had a wife who suddenly got violent headaches. They put her on valium, she dropped down dead two weeks later with a cerebral heamorrage. You’re right, things have changed for the better – at least adulterous females don’t get locked up in an asylum. They get a divorce! Thankfully my recent circumstance was a brush with surgery that was (eventually) succesful. There was some talk of farming surgical procedures out to private practice but I don’t know what’s happened to that. I heard that private practices rent the equipment needed from NHS hospitals and it’s boxed up and delivered, used, then thrown back in the box dirty and shipped back unwashed. It would be better if that same equipment was used properly at the hospital. Apparently the funding structures of hospitals are interesting. So yes. It will be interesting to see what Cameron’s going to deliver and given that it should NOT be too vague and should be deliverable, I think it’s right they take time to… get it right.
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Thalia – yes indeed, seriously awful.
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How infinitely pleasant to be chuckling to myself, in my cosy nook, at an IDLEX contribution. Shakespeare has been “improved “many times most notably in the Victorian period when King Lear was famously given a happy ending by Thomas Bowlder. He has been considered a paradigm of misconceived politeness ever since but I feel strangely friendly towards him today:
To Bowdlerize
To remove material that is considered offensive or objectionable from
[After Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825), who published an expurgated edition of Shakespeare in 1818.]
Where do you draw the line? Conservatism is about Liberty but also against anarchy, itself a prison, .Conservative debates often turn on this issue. Freedom is a more slippery notion than simple Libertarians sometimes seem to suggest and some order is , in my view; essential.
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Jaq: Librium, that was the drug, not Valium. Thanks. Perhaps I’m trying to blot out the memory. Right now the memory is blotto’d out. Idlex may be in a similar position.
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JAQ . I `m not sure I entirely agree with everything you say, but mental health covers such a wide spectrum that I can’t be sure we are discussing the same thing .
You will not be immensely surprised to hear that I have some personal experience of depression. I was much helped by the work of Dr, Claire Weekes. This woman is a modern Saint and god knows how many people her insights have saved. It isn’t a gimmick ,it is cognitive therapy, and it works by changing the way your mind is wired. Like most people picking up a book ,in desperation, I distrusted anything claiming to be a “cure”. I remember this explanation of why changing your mental state is not the quasi religious witch doctoring that infests the area of medicine concerned.
She said , when you begin to learn a piece on the Piano you can’t play it . After practising regularly it begins to come easily . No one would call this anything other than commonplace but that is all we need to achieve . We will practice and we will change the connections of your mind .
My problems were born out of a very slight but undiagnosed neurological condition , less serious than a stammer. It had some minor effects but a vicious cycle of anxiety ,symptoms and increased anxiety set in, over many years, and it became debilitating.
The sanity and commonsense of Dr. Claire Weekes was the way out for me . She is easy to find and I daresay ,as usual,everyone knows more about than I do. Nonetheless her books are much better than the semi digested versions of Cognitive therapy available from the NHS and very many people are still suffering needlessly.
Nothing would please me more than to have pointed someone in the right direction.
I appreciate that others have a great deal more to bear than I did but I am not a health professional and can only speak from my own experience.
(As a pianist I remain atrocious by the way)
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Oh dear. If the Boris blog is going all anti-psychoactives, I may have to give it up. It’s really only the combination of gin and gun control that’s prevented me from taking a life so far.
newmania, you have something against anarchy?
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newmania, you have something against anarchy?
Yes ,are you an anarchist then?I am a poor pianist but the sound of my playing is still preferable to the sound of someone sitting on the keys.That is anarchy.
Actually I tend to compromise by allowing myself every freedom but getting sniffy with anyone lese who wants the same.
I `m guessing Noam Chomsky is waiting in the wings here . Am I right?
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Cash for Casualties
Give a bung to Mr Blair and you are appointed Lord Greasypole of Loanshire.
Now the Broons, Des and Gordy, will bung you your income tax back if you are ordered to commit suicide up the Khyber Pass for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
My heart swells with pride. Who needs close air support or mechanised infantry when you know that your £15,000 salary will stretch just that little bit further?
http://www.englandism.com/latest_news.htm
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Here’s a pretty piccie of the Broons at Home.
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Singularly Issued – assume you’re talking about chickens otherwise that would have to be deleted. Are you by any chance suggesting that Gordon Broon is a chicken??
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JAQ- Your link.Can`t find anything, is it me ?
Singularly- I was sent some horrifying details on the poor equipment our troops are lumbered with last night .Is this partly what you are getting at?I would be interetested in more of your views and to know what your position is exactly
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Remember the old saying “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me”? It’s very true, so just ignore the sods. I am sure that you never said those things, or that they were interpreted to make you look bad. You do not owe them an apology or need to explain to them. If their actions are upsetting you, then they are winning. Don’t let the bastards grind you down.
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I think the word “cock” in this context meant ……oopsy daisy.
This raises rather serious poultry related questions.
Why do we not eat Turkey eggs?
Does the chickenite government have an anti Turkey agenda?
When oh when will they break out of their mental ghetto and vote for Christmas when Christmas has so much to offer the majority?
Can you forgive the massacre of the Armenians?
“French fans warned not to get their cocks out at Hampden Park! ” Genuine Scottish Recorder Headline of two weeks ago.
Actually Turkey is dry and tedious but you can put up with it once or twice a year. ..Or find yourself a juicy young bird and keep it quiet …Life is so sad..
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A juicy young bird, ah those were the days
Can’t check out links just now but I’ll get back to you Newmania.
There was a green paper published yesterday about children leaving care I think.
And you can’t make it up folks – apparently Katie Holmes has advised Vicky Beckham that in order to conceive a girl child she must surround herself with images of womanhood. ahahahahaha. Who needs scientists when we have celebrity eh?
Oh and in the Daily Bellylaugh I spied a little something that alleged that extremely male brains tend to autism. I’m saying nothing but so many amusing possibilities spring to mind. If only Autism wasn’t quite so unfunny.
Let’s celebrate xmas everyone – the festival of a 1950′s Coke advert, hedonistic gorging of dry white meat, sprouts and sherry, and arguing with the extended family you’ve happily managed to avoid all year. Oh and the debt. I can tell you’re all excited
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extremely male brains …in female bodies JAQ.( DT)That reminds me a a good put down I directed at Greenham Common Woman.
” To me a man stuck in a womans body is a delightful prospect. To you an identity crisis requiring therapy,if not surgery. Can you not accept we see things in different ways …..”
Now why is it people get so cross with me ?I `m never rude
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“I am a poor pianist but the sound of my playing is still preferable to the sound of someone sitting on the keys.That is anarchy.” newmania
I assume you mean that the latter (someone sitting on the keys) is anarchy?
I would have to disagree. Anarchy means without leaders not without order. You comments describe chaos not anarchy.
Common misconception.
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I assume you mean that the latter (someone sitting on the keys) is anarchy?
I would have to disagree. Anarchy means without leaders not without order. You comments describe chaos not anarchy. (Kdapt)
It does not even describe chaos.
The sound of the descent of two hemispheres onto a piano keyboard could probably be mathematically described with great exactitude.
Indeed, given a recording of the sound, it would probably be possible to calculate the position, velocity, radius and elasticity (and quite possibly the sex) of the descending buttocks.
The result is neither anarchy nor chaos, but mere discord.
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Kdapt, you are quite right. Thank you.
It’s just occurred to me that along with the rude comments, the allegedly worshipful comments the troll directed at me were deleted as well. This, along with the recurrent and inexplicable outages this site has been experiencing, may negatively impact my desire to comment here. What’s the world coming to when obsequious flattery of raincoaster is deleted?
You’d almost think I didn’t run it.
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idlex, doesn’t that depend where you sit?
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“it does not even describe chaos.” (idlex)
There are a number of different definitions of chaos. Mathematicians themselves cannot even agree if a truly chaotic system exists or if, in fact, everything is chaotic and that ‘order’, perceived at the everyday level, is merely an anthropic illusion.
Chaos (n)
1) A state of utter confusion
2) A confused mass
3) The confused, unorganised state of original matter before the creation of distinct forms.
In describing newmania’s musical analogy, I choose to use it in the sense of definition 2.
Anarchy, in the context of political science, or, as implied by a question such as “…are you an anarchist then?”, refers to a doctrine of social order whereby a society operates without a hierarchy.
Like ‘decimate’, popular usage in the wrong context (such as newmania’s) has given the term ‘anarchy’ an overtone of chaos. Regardless of these contemporary misunderstandings, anarchy does not mean chaos any more than decimate means ‘nearly destroyed’.
In the context of chaos, it is a term often misused by those wishing to cast an unpleasant light over the concept of responsible self determination. Anarchy will, however, in any practical sense, remain an unworkable utopic fiction until large groups of humanity can develop a true, consistent and responsible social conscience.
I have often wondered if a true democracy (unlike the parliamentary democracy we enjoy in Britain) is a form of anarchy. Anarchy doesn’t mean there are no rules only that no national subgroup (government) has the authority to create the rules.
Anarchies are still allowed to have administrators.
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idlex, doesn’t that depend where you sit? (raincoaster)
No, I don’t think it matters at all, as long as it’s on the piano keyboard.
There are a number of different definitions of chaos. Mathematicians themselves cannot even agree if a truly chaotic system exists or if, in fact, everything is chaotic and that ‘order’, perceived at the everyday level, is merely an anthropic illusion. (Kdapt)
Or conversely chaos is an illusion, and everything is ordered.
Anarchy will, however, in any practical sense, remain an unworkable utopic fiction until large groups of humanity can develop a true, consistent and responsible social conscience.
Will that ever happen? I think anarchy will only become workable if and when humans no longer need to live in interdependent societies.
Anyway, raincoaster is an anarchist, so perhaps she’ll tell us what’s what.
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I am a poor pianist but the sound of my playing is still preferable to the sound of someone sitting on the keys.That is anarchy. (newmania)
The more I think about it, the more I think that this is not just wrong, but completely upside down.
Anarchy does not break out when newmania sits on the keys. It breaks out when he starts playing the piano.
But I must admit I’m still trying to get to the bottom of it all.
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‘Anarchy will, however, in any practical sense, remain an unworkable utopic fiction until large groups of humanity can develop a true, consistent and responsible social conscience’ (Kapdt speaker to Tories)
What communism, or anarchial communism or any such unworkable model of society requires is everyone to agree with each other.
When you say ‘a true, consistent and responsible social conscience’ what you mean is that they all agree with each other. It’s not going to happen.
Firstly, education in a anarchy would have to be based on brainwashing the recipient into the communal way of thinking, as opposed to teaching the student to think for themselves as is currently the way in Western society. In this respect the human race would be going backwards in terms of cultural and scientific advancement. A community of zombie-like clones would emerge, it would be like living in hell.
Secondly, whenever any problem arose, such as a shortage of food or water, people would naturally disagree on what the solution was and how it should be administered. If a desparate populous, short of food, disagreed with the administrators of the anarchic state what would happen?
It all seems silly to me, but maybe I’ve just got no imagination.
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Kdapt . This is all very interesting
“I would have to disagree. Anarchy means without leaders not without order. You comments describe chaos not anarchy”
Yes you are right because chaos and anarchy are in practice ( and in theory) identical. My 13 month year old son , for example, creates chaos . Were I to allow him to continue I would be allowing a state of anarchy .If after a week or so you picked up the anarchy and I tidied the chaos we would sit for hours merrily arguing the toss while my wife quietly left me.
.
You suggest that the belief that an absence of imposed order will result in chaos is unfair . You will no doubt be adopting the opposite principle in every aspect of your life from locking up at night to stopping at red lights
.
Yes I know you believe , you claim , that there is a perfectly cooperative state where the need of the self becomes the need of all and the problem of the thief and the cheat disappear. Then we would all have to agree on who the thief and the cheat were Where societies appear to enjoy anarchic order it is only because the levers of control have been hidden in the mind and soul . In such a society I would have to cause violent harm merely to know that I was still free. Other perfected beings would applaud as the blood drained from my prey understanding my self determined needs at that time ( perfectly).
. This and many other irresolvable paradoxes are resolved in a mystical belief in the ascent of man to the angelic state .It has much in common with Communism especially in left wing academic circles such as America’s in the sixties.
I do not wish to be an angel .Danger , risk confrontation and fire and pain were consigned to hell by Milton and following Blake everyone has preferred the devil ever since because he was free I would argue that the extent of pooled selfhood required for anarchy not to become chaos is such that there would be no individual left to have any self -determination. .
I suppose William Blake was a sort of mystical anarchist and he reconciled this problem poetically .He was also as daft as fruit bat and thought he saw fiery angles at least once before breakfast.
And I have just noticed Steven L said much the same thing quicker and better…….Cobblers .
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“My 13 month year old son , for example, creates chaos . Were I to allow him to continue I would be allowing a state of anarchy”
No it wouldn’t. Please re-read my comments, you seem to have missed the point.
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I agree with Steven_L. But I still don’t agree with the original thesis:
‘Anarchy will, however, in any practical sense, remain an unworkable utopic fiction until large groups of humanity can develop a true, consistent and responsible social conscience’ (Kdapt speaker to Tories)
This supposes that it’s what we think that really matters. And, upon this thin premise, a vast political edifice of attempted thought control has been shakily erected. That if we can just get everyone else to think the same way that we do, the world would be a wonderful place.
I don’t see that what we think matters that much. I don’t see that the world would be a better place if we were all in complete agreement that this Titanic ship of our civilization was, or was not, about to run into an iceberg. Events will prove it one way or the other. But those events are not yet under our thought control, last I heard.
Much as I’d like to, I don’t really think I can blame George W Bush for Hurricane Katrina. I can only blame him and his entire administration for their response to this very real event.
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“It all seems silly to me, but maybe I’ve just got no imagination.” (Steve_L)
I can’t comment on your lack of imagination and I’m not sure what you mean by ‘silly’ but, if you are saying that anarchy is unworkable in a practical sense, I agree; I’ve never said otherwise.
Anarchy is a concept and a utopian one at that. It just stops working when there are more than a few people involved.
The reason I corrected newmania on this point is because it is commonly believed that the idea of anarchy is bad, and I feel it’s important to point out that, just because something is unworkable or impractical, it doesn’t make it a bad as a ‘concept’.
By analogy, it would be nice to create cheap electrical generators which just run on water or air. Unfortunately, this concept doesn’t work at a practical level; this unfortunate truth, however, doesn’t make the idea itself any less desireable.
Anarchy is much the same. Whilst it is desirable as a concept, because it requires that all members of society are, qualitatively, equally responsible and consistently deal with each other honestly and fairly (surely this is a desirable state of affairs), it is unworkable practically. The reason anarchy fails in practise is simply because people aren’t ‘equally responsible …’.
I therefore reject the imputation that anarchy is chaos and I reiterate that it means without leaders and not without order. I freely admit that the concept is unworkable in large social groups but do not see that this sad truth undermines its desirability as a concept in the least.
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In this respect, I’d like to record The Thoughts Of Lynn Cheney:
CHENEY: That was really the underlying topic of my last book, Telling the Truth. It’s postmodernism, the notion that there is no such thing as truth. There’s only your version of events and my version and Charles’ version and Harry’s version, and the one that prevails will be that of whoever is the most powerful. This seems to fly in the face of the way scholarship has proceeded for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.
I think the link is on Digby somwhere.
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“This supposes that it’s what we think that really matters” (idlex)
What we think is all that matters. When enough people think the same way humans engender revolutions, war or mathematics. When they think chaotically things stay pretty much the same.
It’s hardly a shaky edifice or a thin premise, it’s the underlying principle of society. i.e. that the dominant will of a large enough national subgroup will influence the direction of any socio-political system.
If everyone was honest and fair we wouldn’t need a government; they aren’t, so we do.
Is that a simple enough concept to digest?
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I really like Digby.
He’s an ex-smoker who can tolerate smokers.
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“the notion that there is no such thing as truth” (idlex)
Very interesting quote. Perception rather than veracity is undoubtedly pre-eminent in the 21st century.
I find the term ‘powerful’ (as in “whoever is the most powerful”) ambiguous though. There are many ways to interpret and/or measure power per se; I would have said ‘influential’ rather.
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What we think is all that matters
No.
Not at all.
We’re simply trying to follow the plot of unfolding events, like sorts of bad detctives – like Colombo.
What we think doesn’t matter one single perfect damn. We are always mistaken in what we think: We don’t no nuthin about anything.
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Then we must agree to differ on this point.
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No Kdapt- I have not missed the point. I have understood the point and disagreed. If you read and understood my contribution you would that find we are not so very far apart. After a quick demonstration of the absurdity of anarchy as a working theory for life I move on. I have claimed that anarchic/order is only achievable poetically or mystically. After a hasty and inglorious retreat you give it even less credit than I do.
KDAPT (the wild ) SAYS
“…just because something is unworkable or impractical, it doesn’t make it a bad as a ‘concept’………………… By analogy, it would be nice to create cheap electrical generators which just run on water or air. Unfortunately, this concept doesn’t work at a practical level; …..
Well yes ,it would be nice if every time I bored someone to death a five pound note appeared in my pocket . It would be nice if Scarleet Johnassen spying me from her Limousine asked if I would like to run my ….and … with a … clinging …relief (ed .. not acceptable ). Sadly magic is only for children’s a birthdays and so is the “conceit” of anarchy .
I have likened anarchy to religion and admitted the depth of the idea in these terms( see William Blake). You now believe it is a childlike magical “supposing”. Obviously I am the true believer in anarchy.
I suspect, in our real lives you would find this very much born out. I wonder of the two of us who has had the most brushes with authority of one kind or another?I certainly hope you have not got into more trouble than I have.
Be good .
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Boris on ‘This Week’ can be found here.
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ionolsen17 So interesting site, thanks!www_4_2
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How the hell did you do that???
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