The Chancellor and the Class Divide
The poor are being robbed in Labour’s class war
I suppose as a politician you must get used to humbug, hypocrisy and sickening opportunism, but when Gordon Brown stood up and announced to the Labour Party conference that the chief defect of David Cameron, as Tory leader, was that he was “an old Etonian”, I am afraid I almost blew a gasket.
It’s not just that I, too, had the joy of attending the Fettes of England. It is not the sheer chippiness I resent. It is not his pathetic attempt to curry favour with his rank-and-file followers by making snide remarks about an opponent’s background, when he is himself the son of the manse and the beneficiary of one of the finest educations this country can provide, at one of its very poshest universities.
It is the rank dishonesty of the Chancellor I dislike. He is attempting to re-open a class divide that long ago disappeared, and he and his party are refusing to admit the existence of the real divide in our society.
That divide is not between the two front benches – both now bristling with Oxbridge degrees and public school educations. The real divide is between the entire class of people now reposing their fat behinds on the green and red benches in the Palace of Westminster, and the bottom 20 per cent of society – the group that supplies us with the chavs, the losers, the burglars, the drug addicts and the 70,000 people who are lost in our prisons and learning nothing except how to become more effective criminals.
Look at those Labour benches these days. Once they were full of swarf-scarred shop stewards, miners, dockers, people with a real claim to represent the old working class. Now they have hardly anyone left except John Prescott, who was, as he never tires of telling us, a waiter with Cunard. They are university lecturers, and lobbyists, former heads of the Child Poverty Action Group, and ex-Guardian hacks, and think-tank wallahs, and lawyers, lawyers, lawyers.
In other words they are almost all of them, Gordon included, as much members of the smug middle classes as the people on the Tory benches opposite. Which is not demographically surprising, when you consider what has happened to the old working class, and how it has shrunk in the past 30 years.
If you took the socio-economic profile of Britain and plotted it on a graph, it would look like a bowler hat, or a python that has swallowed an elephant. The right-hand brim would represent the super-rich. The super-rich will always be with us. They are mainly harmless. They may very occasionally raid the pension funds of companies they own, but they share that nasty habit with the Chancellor, and unlike the Chancellor they normally end up in jail for their misdemeanours.
In the middle we have the huge mass of the middle classes, in which category we find about 80 per cent of society, including, for what it is worth, large numbers of former aristocrats who must work like crazy to keep the punters coming to see their mazes and dungeons. Of course it is tough being middle class, and we all have to struggle against the depredations of the Chancellor.
But it is the left-hand brim that should concern us most, and that should worry the Chancellor most. What is Labour doing for these people? Very little, except to keep them exactly where they are, on their run-down estates, voting Labour in the deluded hope of bigger hand-outs.
It is one of the most depressing statistical features of modern Britain that social mobility has declined in the past 10 years, and is getting worse. Most social and economic historians would agree that the Thatcherian revolution of the 1980s was a liberating event for millions of people in the old working classes, who not only bought their own houses but also shares, and a stake in Britain’s economic growth. They moved on up. Now the canals of opportunity are freezing up again; the ladders are being kicked away.
A recent LSE study found that Britain was the most socially immobile of eight similar advanced western countries, the others being Canada, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and the US. The overwhelming explanation cited was disparity in educational opportunity, and the increasing link between family income and educational achievement. As we all know, there has been a huge expansion in higher education in this country, and Gordon and Tony will not rest until 50 per cent of the population receive it. But this expansion has overwhelmingly benefited the middle classes, and especially the rich.
Graduation rates for the richest fifth of society have risen from 20 per cent to 47 per cent. Among the poorest fifth of society, the number of university graduates has barely moved, from six per cent to nine per cent. In fact, the sheer profusion of degrees of one kind or another is now acting as a new barrier to those who don’t have one.
You used to be able to work your way up from the post-room to the boardroom. But we no longer have a culture of in-work training. We no longer have apprenticeships. We have a myriad of degrees in every subject from media studies to windsurfing, and for those who do not have them that can now be a disadvantage.
Then there is Labour’s continuing ideological hatred of grammar schools, and selection, and the opportunities these provided for brilliant children from the very poorest backgrounds. I find it physically sick-making that Labour members and supporters, such as Polly Toynbee, can campaign stridently against selection in the maintained sector, yet send their children to fee-paying schools.
More and more of these middle-class Labour Left-wing bossyboots send their children to the most privileged and expensive schools in the country. If you doubt my testimony, read Andy McSmith’s article in this week’s superselling Spectator. What else are the Labour lot doing for the bottom 20 per cent, apart from hauling up the ladders of opportunity?
They are using every opportunity to boss them and make them conform to their middle-class mores. They tell them not to smoke. They tell them not to be so fat. They tell them not to drink so much. They tell them they may no longer go out with the hunt. They are so full of revulsion when they see a chav belting her kids in the supermarket that they seriously contemplate banning smacking.
They keep them snared in a super-complicated system of means-tested benefits, with its infinite disincentives to saving or work. Above all, they tax them an exorbitant proportion of their incomes. It is there that a reforming and compassionate Conservative government should begin. The real class war is not between Labour and Tory; it is in the treatment by the middle classes of the bottom 20 per cent, and it is a war being waged by Labour.
*To follow – Boris’s participation in a debate yesterday evening on the motion “Apart from Chavs – the British Have no Class”. Boris was For the argument*
139 Comments
There is, even today, a measure of pupil selection practiced, albeit by other means , if a report on Radio 4 this AM were to be believed.
Although supposedly forbidden by governmental edict , schools have the right to interview parents.( the right to this practice was upheld by a court earlier this year). If this is not a kind of selection process , I do not know what is.
In my area there are a number of good comprehensive schools, and a couple which are less so. The competition to gain entry to the good ones is fierce , and increasingly people outside the catchment area are demanding entry for their children to the good ones , using the so called freedom of parental choice,thereby leaving a proportionate number of local children bereft of places of their choice.
If the defunct Grammar Schools were still in business , the pressure on the remaining schools would be eased, and everyone could be acconmmodated.
Finally , one great problem with the less able schools , seems to be their inability tio impose discipline . It is of course not necessarily the fault of the school, but restrictions on the application of diciplinary measures , coupled with the culture of ” Rights ,& bugger the responsibilities” of some parents , can only exacerbate the teachers’ problems. Discipline is paramount in the successful, stressfree managemant of any any section of society, and it is even more of a necessity in schools.
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I’ve got to say I’m completely with Psimon on this one. And whilst I agree with discipline in schools, my personal experience, recently, has been that pursuit of discipline was completely overboard and to the detriment of the child (my child as it happens). I’m uncomfortable championing one behaviour or another ie: kids can do anything vs kids can do nothing – I know that’s not what you mean Mac but not everyone would exercise your good judgment. Often, I think, people use fashionable ideologies to excuse their own extreem behaviour so putting the emphasis on learning to the best of their ability and not punishing the pursuit of personal excellence (Jack, was that your point?) surely places the focus elsewhere and hopefully encourages common sense with regard to discipline. In the current climate you’re going to say ‘no’ I can feel it!
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“Mr Howse:
You ARE John Prescott, and i claim my five pounds!”
I’m going to take that as a very big compliment. =)
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It’s probably for the best that you take that as a compliment.
Of course, only one other person would probably actually agree with you…maybe he’ll lend you one of his jags!
;o)
Naturally, as people won’t be able to spend money how they wish under your plan, no one will be allowed to earn more than the minimum wage too? After all, we don’t want the poor fryers at McWimpy King getting jealous of the wages earned by plumbers or stockbrokers, eh?!
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Jaq
I think that was along the lines I meant so I’m not saying ‘no’. Although I don’t believe in magical solutions I can’t help thinking that if education is pursued for what it should be – providing useful knowledge and skills for the good of individuals and society, enhancing people as cultural beings and providing them with a constructively critical faculty – rather than egalitarian social engineering then perhaps many of the tensions that exarcebate discipline problems at present might be eased.
Stephen and Psimon
When a;;’s said and done I quite like Prezza. Some snooty types mock him for his dodgey syntax but, as one who in speech often find myself stranded in the middle of a sentence without a verb in sight, I not only sympathise but applaud the game way he biffs on. Better him than that po faced old fraud Anthony Wedgewood Benn say I!
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At least Tony Benn is anti-Europe so he can’t be all bad.
Let’s pull out of Europe, NOW!
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Jaq: Pull out of Europe? Surely a better idea would be to invade them and seize their assets!
Joking, of course…but i should point out that we have maintained the balance of power in Europe for quite a few centuries now. It would be a shame to let them all go poof after all this time….
;o)
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(I should point out that I am pro the common market idea, but somewhat anti the United States of Europe bit)
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“Naturally, as people won’t be able to spend money how they wish under your plan…”
They won’t need to, more like. Surely nationalising private schools is just as advantageous to the middle classes as the working classes, as it means their kids get the education they want them to without having to shell out thousands and thousands of pounds a year more?
“When a;;’s said and done I quite like Prezza… Better him than that po faced old fraud Anthony Wedgewood Benn say I!”
Hear, hear! I really love, and identify with, the man’s bluntness and outspokenness on issues that the more timid in the party refuse point-blank to speak out on. We need more like him if we’re to retain any semblance of being a leftist party, I think.
“no one will be allowed to earn more than the minimum wage too?”
I have no problem with wage inequalities between different jobs whatsoever; I actually believe in money (and the material possessions it brings) as an incentive to do well and to work hard.
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“(I should point out that I am pro the common market idea, but somewhat anti the United States of Europe bit)”
Seconded.
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Somewhat Psi? somewhat?? Actually I like your first idea it would kill two birds with one stone and get the troops out of iraq. But hang on a minute….hasn’t someone tried to do that before? Invade Europe? And Britain tends to force roads and railway infrastructures and investment on the countries we invade. I’m not sure we could actually afford the pillaging Psi. Best just all come home for xmas then.
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Whoa! I’m number 100!
Can I claim my prize Melissa? I’d like the xmas eve winning lottery ticket and Tony Bliar out of Downing Street – don’t tell me, you’re working on it!
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I long for the old days. “Fog in Channel, Europe cut off” – bring on the pea soupers!
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Psi: A propos the conundrum of remaining / exiting Europe: you said: ‘It would be a shame to let them all go poof after all this time….‘
That is , if I might just say, very Politically IN-correct considering who is the European Commissioner for Trade. Joking aside, this thread is basically about the class divide, and here we have a real illustration of that phenomenon :two ends of one strand – Peter Mandelson in the Blue corner , and John Prescott in the Infra Red.
If I might paraphrase a leader writer’s comments from a today’s issue of a national daily newspaper:
Is it not amazing that Prescott,is allowed, in essence,to say, ‘We are at our best when fighting the nobs’: the Tory party is ‘The Eton Mafia’?
It would surely be equally repugnant if Cameron were to say ‘We are at our best when we’re fighting the oiks’ ; coupled with, ‘The sink estate Comprehensive terrorists’.
Neither of the two personifications is true, so why is it necessary for the first one to have been uttered?
Why has no one castigated Prescott? Labour would surely ,and quite rightly, scream blue murder if the second were to be said, even in jest.
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“The sink estate Comprehensive terrorists”
Tenner says that come the next election, that’s the Party’s official name.
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Help! I seem to be the only one not using pointy brackets! If anyone wants to get started with them then, along with all the excellent advice given already, you might like to use View/Source to see how people have used it (HTML I mean). Regrettably as a noveau Conservative, I am completely against change, as Vicus notes, and so will plod along with ungarnished text. But well done everyone else!
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Stephen: Is it not more than probable that the reason private schools give a better education (on average) is BECAUSE they aren’t run by the government? And you want to nationalise them? Don’t worry, the hospital for people who think like that is very soft and warm, and the pyjamas have very long sleeves! Just steer clear of the Indian bloke…he tends to throw drinking fountains through windows!
)
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Jack – I didn’t know I was a conservative till Mac told me so. Read Polly today (on schools and education as it happens). I wondered why Hitch urged me to read her stuff and I admit I did worry that it was an attempt to divert me as I seem to argue with him or that perhaps he thought I might find a home for my opinions as I seem to argue with him, but no. The most that a journalist can hope for is that they promote consideration and discussion of something, which here we see Boris doing with success and style. Just listening to people as I go through life tells me that Hitch is successful. So what of Polly? Now I understand – even the most ardent supporter of Blair ‘smells a rat’. Reading her column was so reassuring.
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I AM IN LURVE!!
With a Bugatti Baydon(?) as it happens. Did you see it on Top Gear? Ohhhhh Maaayn! 1000BHP, 0-60 in 2.5seconds, 100 litre tank that at top speed is gone in 12 mins! Mark Gamon cast the petrolhead demon from my body because I LOVE THIS CAR! It cost 5M to make so I’d have to win the xmas eve lottery to get it and then no-one would insure me. If I was happily married to Hitch I would insist he ditch the Volvo and drive this car till he giggled (whoohoo) and if I gave it to Boris he’d never give it back! Sex on wheels from this distance Mark!
AND the star in the reasonably priced car was the fabulous Nigel Mansell (we are not worthy). But sadly I missed the performance of our glorious leader in said car and would love to know details of same. They’re doing re-runs on Sky so there’s hope yet if anyone knows and would tell me??
and it’s back to the studio for more education education education…
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“Stephen: Is it not more than probable that the reason private schools give a better education (on average) is BECAUSE they aren’t run by the government? And you want to nationalise them?”
I don’t necessarily see why that should be so, to be honest. Bloody Conservatives, always underestimating the ability of the State to provide for its people!
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I just laughed so much i piddled myself.
Underestimating the ability of the state to provide for its people!!
Nope, just piddled myself again!
D
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“I just laughed so much i piddled myself.
Underestimating the ability of the state to provide for its people!!
Nope, just piddled myself again!
D”
How exactly is such pessimism and negativity going to result in any improvement in public services…? Unless, of course, you actually want public services to go down the drain. Which, being a Tory, I’m guessing you might – then people’ll have no choice to look to charity for handouts. It’ll be just like the ‘modern Britain’ ‘Dave’ Cameron’s dreaming of. If a pre-1900 system of welfare and services can be called modern, that is!
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Pessimism and negativity, eh? Well, let’s see. You have already admitted that private education is better than the standard state education (on average). You see this as elitism, so you want to see private schools brought under the state system. A system you have already admitted has failings.
How does this support your argument that the state knows best? (Or, at least, knows what it is doing!)
If private schools ensure a better standard of education (and there are exceptions on both sides for this), surely bringing state schools UP to the standard is a better idea than reducing private schools to a lower level?
With the previous few years being full of illegal wars, reductions in our freedoms, and a clear move towards a police state, do you really still trust the state to get things right?
Remember, too, that those who are prepared to pay EXTRA for a private education (they still pay for a state education for their offspring too) are not necessarily rich. Maybe they drive second hand cars, eat supermarket brand beans, never go out to pubs or restaurants, and don’t holiday in order to give the kids a better chance. How dare you poop on their sacrifice!
Many things in life are “one size fits all”. Education ISN’T one of them!
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“Remember, too, that those who are prepared to pay EXTRA for a private education (they still pay for a state education for their offspring too) are not necessarily rich. Maybe they drive second hand cars, eat supermarket brand beans, never go out to pubs or restaurants, and don’t holiday in order to give the kids a better chance.”
I don’t believe that they should have to, though. A good education should be a birth right, not a privilege. I don’t see why it has to be one or the other, really – that a family has to make sacrifices so the children can get a head start over their peers. The way I see it is, if you’ve paid for your kids to be educated by the state, then the state should be doing its utmost to provide the education you want them to have – and I fail to see how this can happen when the best schools are all privately run.
Nationalising private schools would mean that the pupils burden would be shared much more fairly between schools, and average state sector class sizes would fall as a result, thus meaning a better standard of teaching, more attention/support from teachers, and a better education.
The needs of the many, I feel, must take preference over the privileges of the few – especially where something as important and determining as education is concerned.
“A system you have already admitted has failings.”
I’m not denying that the state system has failings – and nor is the government, which is why there will be an Education Bill in the new year. I’m going to wait and see what the proposals of the bill are exactly before passing further comment on it. I *will* say that I disagree with large parts of the White Paper, but the AWP does address some of these problems while keeping the sp
“If private schools ensure a better standard of education (and there are exceptions on both sides for this), surely bringing state schools UP to the standard is a better idea than reducing private schools to a lower level?”
That would be the ideal situation, yes.
“You have already admitted that private education is better than the standard state education (on average).”
Considering that the top public schools charge £23k a year in fees, you would hope so!
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Sorry, that should have been “…while keeping the spirit of the original proposals alive”. Oops!
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Stephen Howse:
Pessimism is the natural response to having had many promises , which, apparently inevitably, end in bitter disappointment.
It is easier to see a glass as half empty, when you see the amount ebbing away by the second, than to see it as half full when it would take a miracle to reverse the ebbing tide.
It is the antithesis of the King Knut syndrome, Blair and his band cannot stem the ebb.
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I prefer to see the glass as neither half-full nor half-empty…but as being the wrong size!
If a decent education cost £23,000 a year, then surely we should all just pay more taxes to fund a similar state system? Personally, i think that is a poor idea. But, if that’s what it costs, the choices are more taxes or allowing those that want to pay more voluntarily to pay voluntarily. Nationalising private schools is NOT the right-sized glass!
We’d all like to have beluga caviar, but most of us have to be stuck with lumpfish. Metaphorically speaking. (Fish eggs are ok, but a little overated. Fois Gras, on the other hand, fully justifies cruelty to geese!)
Besides, as i said previously, what do you think gives you the right to tell people how and where they can spend their hard-earned spondulix? Authoritarians are not my cup of tea. Liberty is the way forward…it’s time to start taking personal responsibility, for, with that, comes freedom. And, as the Human Rights Act states “all people are born free and equal, and should treat each other in a spirit of brotherhood”. A fine sentiment. Less rules, more respect for our individualities. Free the hippy within!!
;o)
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Top private schools do not actually charge £23k for tuition; that is their boarding rate, so accomodation is in there as well. The cost for a day pupil is little more than the average cost of a state pupil. More can then be spent on education because there is no LEA infrastructure to syphon off funds.
I resent the money I have to pay for my children’s education over the taxes I’m already paying, but the alternative (abandon them to the local school, with well known problems denied by the school staff) is unacceptable.
I would love to every pupil in a private school, with NO government involvement, let parents decide what they want for their children. This could be achieved with a voucher that followed each child, and parents completely free to apply to any school. Each school should also be free to impose whatever selection criteria it wanted (Academic, sporting, musical, religeous or even appeareance – we only take blonds). It will not happen because (as I said a long way above) it will be seen as subsidising “rich” people like me, and selection works, so it can’t be allowed.
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All hail Psi! Well said that man.
No I don’t
No that’s too simplistic you are ignoring reality – the reality is that an entirely different culture of learning exists in private schools and just reducing class sizes in state schools will not automatically morph them into good schools. It will do good but won’t magically solve all the problems.
Let’s look at some of the problems of society and see the solutions introduced into schools to combat them:
* teenage pregnancy – sex education introduced, NOT just in a factual way as would be consistent with marriage and the established morality of this country but encompassing all perversions. Has this solved the problem? It has not. Education education education did not work.
* Bullying and racism – has ANYTHING the government imposed on education done anything to reduce this dreadful behaviour? No, it is still rife in schools (AND in the workplace)
* Acheivement – what a cock-up! National controversy over wrongly marked papers, adjusted results and the move toward coursework throught education; secondary through tertiary, has devalued ALL achievement for hardworking students that do not deserve this.
Education education education has been a disaster for this goverment. What little success they have had has been far outweighed by the politically correct stupidity they have imposed. Why are teachers being prosecuted for defending a student being attacked? Why are 5 year olds being taught about sex? Sometimes adopting a practice that WORKED should be applauded not critisised, however oldfashioned that practice may be considered. After all, breathing has been around for centuries but it’s good for me. Change for the sake of change isn’t always the best policy and we’ve had too many quick fixes from this government. Mac was right when he said “Blair and his band” cannot fix this.
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Stephen H:
You claim the Conservatives are always underestimating the ability of the State Etc.
That statement is hardly apposite , when anyone who will, can see that the state does NOT provide ,nor does it appear CAPABLE of providing, of equal quality or even quantity , the same level of education for approximately 15% of its people, if I quote several reports of illiteracy in school leavers’ over rhe last year or so, not least one by an eminent industrial employers body.
An estimate is only necessary when an exact value of the subject involved is unknown. We were promised,’Education, Education’, but we received , at least for a significant minority, ‘Illiteracy Innumeracy’. Fine words , not backed up by deeds. And more of the same to come, by the sound of it.
.
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I think MarkE’s position is good. I don’t think you should abandon private schools, most do a terrific job. Where as state schools don’t. A voucher system would be terrific.
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Jaq: Thank you for your kind words of support!
On the subject of racism; What chance does ANY government have curbing this vile reaction when certain tabloid newspapers (mainly 1. Across: “Everyday Post? (3,5,4)”) constantly make out that all immigrants are violent criminals intent on scalping our social security system?
This country has been taking immigrants for at least 2000 years. We are ALL immigrant stock…be it Roman, Viking, Angle, Saxon, Norman, Carribean, African, Indian, or whatever. We are a mongrel nation, and that is our strength. It’s what makes Britain Great! It’s time we all woke up to this (more recent immigrants included!).
(No prizes for solving the crossword clue, by the way – Just trying not to get myself sued!)
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I’m with Charlotte on the voucher system – excellent idea!
Can’t say I’m with you on immigration though Psi – I’m all for clamping right down on border control – think it’s a sham at the moment and hope Mac will agree with me. However long ago this Isle has been invaded is no excuse for half the world to cross a continent and come here when the NHS and housing availability cannot support the current population let alone any more. It’s not fair on anyone – them or us!
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Psi: Gradual immigration, as in the past was the case, was possibly the best thing which could have happened to this land of ours ; when one thinks of the various groups of immigrants over the years, amongst whom , Huguenots,Russian and German Jews, West Indians, Indians and Pakistanis, to name but a few, it is clear that our Country is richer for their being here.
Uncontrolled immigration however , as is presently the case , is not only not desirable , it may be harmful, because the very volume is no longer sustainable.
The mass movement of populations from the newer member States to the UK was engendered by the glowing media reports about the UK in the said States , promising, what for some is a veritable Nirvana of free housing, free medical attention, free monetary benefits,strict anti-racial laws, and a freedom of self expression seldom achieved in the old eastern European countries.
Some of our own residents are not , in some cases, receiving their due benefits , due to the weight of PC consideration of the immigrants, both legal and illegal, with the resulting overloading of medical and social services.
I have said before , and I say again , that if the immigrants have something to offer in return for the benefits available , WELCOME.
By the same rule , if they are merely here to leech off the State, send them back home , if home is considered safe.
Too often< ( and again today), we hear of criminal gangs operating under the cloak of ‘ Asylum Seeker ‘ status, making false and multi-identity claims for benefits to which they are not entitled. If the UK is to retrieve the international respect which it should be afforded in order to function as a sovereign State; the present state of affairs, a propos illegal immigration,and the frequent fraudulent exploitation of our benefits system must be radically addressed.
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That’s a shame, Jaq…as they are the ones doing the shabby jobs we don’t want to do, and the majority pay the taxes that keep those very services running.
They even poured you drinks and fed you in that fine dining room in Westminster.
They help fill the gap in our declining birthrate.
And may I also remind you of Mr Johnson’s OWN fine lineage!
And as to any strain on the NHS; as we no longer produce enough doctors, nurses, dentists, etc. (in no particular order), who do you think makes up the numbers – in massive proportions!
Yes, housing is an issue. But there are plenty of brown field sites to be developed (providing all that employment!)…and i am amazed by the number of empty properties that abound (I come across them often, being a gasman and all!). The problem is affordability more than scarcity.
It’s easy to find people to blame, but beware of the ridiculous propaganda perpetuated by fascist rags masquerading as serious newspapers! (no offence!)
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Mac:
Adding to what i said previously, and taking into account your post (I was typing mine when it arrived!)…I fully agree that, should any immigrant to this country NOT be prepared to join in our (generally) hardworking society, and add to our marvellous nation (rather than just try and take from it), then YES! Give them their marching orders (within reason, there are plenty of very deserving political exiles here – many of who really do face terrible abuses if they return to where they really want to be).
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You misunderstand me Psi – when you say they fill “a gap” as doctors and nurses that is not so. Many British cannot secure either university places, funding or jobs thereafter because of the current situation (already ‘qualified’ immigrants) and ‘we’ are leeching these people from their homelands where there is now a derth of qualified staff because they believe life will be better here and it is. We should have responsible controlled immigration not just a free for all.
You say they do the shabby jobs ‘we’ don’t want to do. There may be a case for pusuading me that jobs that are now synonymous with immigrants are seen as beneath the British. Then STOP immigration and encourage the British to buckle down. Sliding towards a situation where immigrants taxes support an indolent elite is not sustainable – not the situation described is true but in the context of your argument…
As for Boris’s lineage his ancestor was an ambassador not a one-legged waiter with AIDS (remember health migrants!) so it is up to you which you think the most useful. However, may I direct you to Macs point – gradual immigration is one thing and has never been a problem but the scale of the immigration we see now along with the NHS and housing crisis, and they are real, is another thing entirely.
May I also mention this supposed war against terror – without control of our own borders, and with immigration out of control, how are we ever to make this country secure? We haven’t got a cat in hell’s chance. But even so, controlled immigration is just common sense.
Tightening immigration would give realistic expectations on both sides and I would add that I would STOP enforced prostitution by legalising brothels. There now, I’ve said it and I know it’ll be unpopular but forced prostitution for migrants is repellent to me. Something should be done to protect these immigrants sold a shallow empty dream.
BTW: you say “They even poured you drinks and fed you in that fine dining room in Westminster” – how would you know?
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BTW: with regard to Mac’s excellent point – I saw today that around 2 thirds of skilled migrants go to the States and 85% of unskilled workers migrate to Europe.
‘nough said!
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Every politician is pro immigration. They have to be due to economic reasons and because of the political imperative to appeal to immigrant voters.
There is a dirty reality to immigration though that no-one is happy to discuss because it connects with all sorts of current day taboos in relation to race, class, nature vs. nurture and how people operate in groups. It’s a bit facile in a way to plump for the ‘immigration makes us richer or more diverse’ line I think. Does it? How do we know it does?
If I am only dealing with people who are ‘not like me’ in the service system how do I feel about that? How do they feel about me?
Immigrants don’t remain forever in the coat room handing you your bags. They work really hard at school or within their communities to make money and develop power. How do I feel about people who see me as ‘not like them’ in power? How do I feel about people with different views to me in power? If people tend to feel most comfortable with others who look similar (faces we know how to read) and opinions and beliefs that share some commonly held tenets of belief even if they are oppositional how do I feel living in a community of people who don’t share these characteristics?
Do people learn to read different faces and come to understand others? Do people decide to move to be with others they feel more comfortable with developing ghettos? How do we manage a community full of ghettos? Is a divided society one that will withstand the test of time/ war etc?
Are some immigrant groups better suited to living in the UK than others? Do some people historically blend into the community very easily while others take generations to assimilate if they ever do? Should immigration policy reflect an historical understanding of the way different groups operate in western societies or should this knowledge (if it exists) be ignored? There are lots of different questions to consider. Multiculturalism and living in multiracial societies is experimental. It’s normal to us now, but historically I think it’s an anomaly. I don’t think people should be hard on others who struggle coming to terms with it sometimes. It’s a really big deal.
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I think that perhaps Psimon is indulging in what I know as modus mistakens. This involves the mistaken move from “If A then B” and B to A.
Hurrying to the example here. If Dogsbody is against all immigration then he is against uncontrolled immigration AND Dogsbody is against uncontrolled immigration THEREFORE he is against all immigration. (This is MM in action).
Jaq and Macarnie have both expressed concern about the level of immigration and its nature at the present time. But you cannot deduce from this that they are against all immigration, now or in the past.
I have no reason to suppose that you are anything but sincere in this Psimon old chap, but your argument is at best bad logic and at worst rhetoric!
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Psi:
I do not understand your implication that the UK produces too few doctors of medicine. ( For example)
There is a small army, consisting of that very category of graduates of our fine medical schools, at present wondering why they are forced to apply for unemployment benefit , due to the dearth of suitable places ( or ideed ANY places)in our hospitals.
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Less a dearth of places, more a dearth of doctors prepared to work for the paltry wages dished out by the NHS, methinks! But, as no one (myself included!)
is keen on paying more taxes…
On the other hand, it could be because they keep closing all the hospitals!!! (Just give me 5 minutes alone in a room with the ****s that make those decisions!)
I have yet to meet any of this supposed army of mass disease-carrying rapist immigrants. All the ones I have met (and there are, admittedly, lots!) have been polite and hardworking – and look a damn sight healthier than most Brits! Of course, I just go out and talk to people, rather than getting my facts from a newspaper that supported the german Nazi party – so i’m far more likely to be wrong!
And Jaq…I talked to the staff at Westminster, rather than just ignoring them and letting them get on with it (as i was probably supposed to do!). THAT’s how I know! (Or, maybe, I have a trained surveillence newt positioned on the river terrace…)
)
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Interesting article on emigration/immigration here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3982217.stm
I hope the 100s of 1000s of Brits who leave the UK are made more welcome than we make many of our new arrivals.
Interesting that the largest immigrant population in England was the Irish. Are these the fellows you want thrown out?
Just asking!
;o)
Psi
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“And Jaq…I talked to the staff at Westminster, rather than just ignoring them”
Psi – why do you assume I ignored them? Were you there watching me? Taking pictures perhaps? Making notes? Producing T shirts? Banners? Slogans? ‘Down with Jaq the minx’? Actually I spent quite a lot of time talking to the staff of Westminster as I was stuck for 20 minutes with a gun in my face with nothing to do BUT talk to them.
And I don’t get my information from The Daily Rag – I do live in the world you know.
And a merry Christmas to you too.
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I know I don’t get out as much as I should but what’s all this stuff about Westminster and staff and guns? Has the Hitch been up to his tricks agains? Is there something that Boris hasn’t told us? I’ll horsewhip the bounders!
Happy Christmas! I’m off to buy the ingredients for the gruel on the big day and the cheapest tangerine I can get for the childrens’ present.
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Jack Ramsey you Scrooge you! Hitch has indeed been up to his tricks where I’m concerned and you are SO right in your assesment of him – he’s highlighted my Scrooge tendancies too and as a result we had two days of joyous card making. We had gallons of glitter glue on the furniture, carpet, clothes and very nearly the cat as she alerted me to the fact that the offspring started without me. With order restored (almost) we managed to make something almost legible to send to folks and Hitch is now assured of my mediocrity in the world of arts and crafts. So if you see him Jack I would say give him a big wet xmas kiss from me (remember those?) but I’d rather Boris did that – it would be so refreshing to see a journalist run from an MP for a change! The thought of Boris with arms wide shouting ‘Hitch, Baby!!’ and a look of complete panic on Hitch’s face will keep me smiling throughout the festivities. (I’m very sad, I know)
I do hope Boris will find time to be with his friends and sing at least one chorus of ‘Delilah’ and also that the Johnsons get to have at least ONE meal at Rachels that includes passing the gravy boat. Stanley Johnson is, of course, perfect, so what more could he be given than the love of a happy family which I sincerely hope the Johnsons find they are this xmas and throughout the new year.
As for the man with the big gun Jack, and my his equipment was scary, I didn’t realise my every move was being logged to beat me with later. That was one of my perfect happy days. Here I sit in my ivory tower remembering perfect days such as those (sigh) and I see no reason for any detractors to diminish the happy memory of such a perfect day. There’s always one isn’t there?! Well bah humbug Psi – I had a lovely day and will always remember it as such: good company, good food and the majesty of history.
I wish you joy with your family and your tangerine Jack. I’m sure whatever you have will be warmly shared. Have a good one!
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Since Jaq mentioned Scrooge and ,”Bah! Humbug!”
Once again it’s bally Christmas; I suppose I should be glad,
That I’ve lived to see another; despite the year I’ve had.
I never understood it when some people cried,” Enough”.
I’m near to understanding now: the going’s getting tough.
Those petty little niggles, which add up to quite a lot,
Enough to make one moan and say,” The World has gone to pot”.
So take your little tangerine, and stuff it full of truffles;
The World is pretty tasteless now: I’ve gone down with the snuffles.
Gesundheit and God bless us ! Everyone.
From Tiny Tim.
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Mac, sorry to hear you have the snuffles – isn’t that Andrew Marr’s hamster? Well what you do in your own home is entirely up to you but I recommend my mums cold remedy: one mug half full of milk, half brandy and sweetened with either sugar or honey. Warm in the microwave to taste. It doesn’t cure your cold but you really don’t care! Bless you Mac, have a good Christmas if you can. Gesundheit
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Jaq: I fear you are misunderstanding what i did and didn’t say…
1. I NEVER said you ignored anyone at Westminster. I doubt very much that the staff that I met were very different from the staff that YOU met, and my comment was based on MY encounters.
2. I never said you read the daily nazi…although i admit i likened some of what you said to the propoganda spouted by this rag. I was just adding some thinking points to your comments.
3. I had hoped that the inclusion of some “smilies” might have indicated my light heartedness. I’m ever so sorry you seem have taken offense!
4. I hope you (and all the contributers to this site) have a VERY happy midwinter festival!
5. And a happy new year.
6.
) <–(a smiley face)
7. ;o) <–(a friendly wink)
8. ??? <–(couldn’t think how to indicate a big hug!)
May you all prosper in health, wealth, and happiness!!
Psi
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6 = smiley face
7 = friendly wink
8 = don’t know how to symbolise a friendly hug!
(By the way! lol)
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