The Attorney General’s ban is ridiculous, untenable, and redolent of guilt. I do not like people to break the Official Secrets Act … we now have allegations of such severity, against the US President and his motives, that we need to clear them up.
If someone passes me the document within the next few days I will be very happy to publish it in The Spectator, and risk a jail sentence. .. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. If we suppress the truth, we forget what we are fighting for
I’ll go to jail to print the truth about Bush and al-Jazeera
It must be said that subsequent events have not made life easy for those of us who were so optimistic as to support the war in Iraq. There were those who believed the Government’s rubbish about Saddam’s Weapons of Mass Destruction. Then the WMD made their historic no-show.
Some of us were so innocent as to suppose that the Pentagon had a well-thought-out plan for the removal of the dictator and the introduction of peace. Then we had the insurgency, in which tens of thousands have died.
Some of us thought it was about ensuring that chemical weapons could never again be used on Iraqi soil. Then we heard about the white phosphorus deployed by the Pentagon. Some people believed that the American liberation would mean the end of torture in Iraqi jails. Then we had Abu Ghraib.
Some of us thought it was all about the dissemination of the institutions of a civil society – above all a free press, in which journalists could work without fear of being murdered. Then we heard about the Bush plan to blow up al-Jazeera.
Some of us feel that we have an abusive relationship with this war. Every time we get our hopes up, we get punched by some piece of bad news. We yearn to be told that we’re wrong, that things are going to get better, that the glass is half full. That’s why I would love to think that Dubya was just having one of his little frat-house wisecracks, when he talked of destroying the Qatar-based satellite TV station. Maybe he was only horsing around. Maybe it was a flippant one-liner, of the kind that he delivers before making one of his dramatic exits into the broom-closet. Perhaps it was a kind of Henry II moment: you know, who will rid me of this turbulent TV station? Maybe he had a burst of spacy Reagan-esque surrealism, like the time the old boy forgot that the mikes were switched on, and startled a press conference with the announcement that he was going to start bombing Russia in five minutes. Maybe Bush thought he was Kenny Everett. Perhaps he was playing Basil Brush. Boom boom.
Who knows? But if his remarks were just an innocent piece of cretinism, then why in the name of holy thunder has the British state decreed that anyone printing those remarks will be sent to prison?
We all hope and pray that the American President was engaging in nothing more than neo-con Tourette-style babble about blowing things up. We are quite prepared to believe that the Daily Mirror is wrong. We are ready to accept that the two British civil servants who have leaked the account are either malicious or mistaken. But if there is one thing that would seem to confirm the essential accuracy of the story, it is that the Attorney General has announced that he will prosecute anyone printing the exact facts.
What are we supposed to think? The meeting between Bush and Blair took place on April 16, 2004, at the height of the US assault on Fallujah, and there is circumstantial evidence for believing that Bush may indeed have said what he is alleged to have said.
We know that the administration was infuriated with the al-Jazeera coverage of the battle, and the way the station focused on the deaths of hundreds of people, including civilians, rather than the necessity of ridding the town of dangerous terrorists. We remember how Cheney and Rumsfeld both launched vehement attacks on the station, and accused it of aiding the rebels. We are told by the New York Times that there were shouty-crackers arguments within the administration, with some officials yelling that the channel should be shut down, and others saying that it would be better to work with the journalists in the hope of producing better coverage.
We also recall that the Americans have form when it comes to the mass media outlets of regimes they dislike. They blew up the Kabul bureau of al-Jazeera in 2002, and they pulverised the Baghdad bureau in April 2003, killing one of the reporters. In 1999 they managed to blow up the Serb TV station, killing two make-up girls, in circumstances that were never satisfactorily explained.
To be fair to the Americans, we must also accept that they had good grounds for resenting al-Jazeera. The station is hugely respected in the Arab world, has about 35 million viewers, and yet it gives what can only be described as a thoroughly Arab perspective of current affairs. It assists in the glorification of suicide bombers; it publishes the rambling tapes of Bin Laden and others among the world’s leading creeps and whackos; it is overwhelmingly hostile to America and sceptical about the neo-con project of imposing western values and political systems in the Middle East.
And yet however wrong you may think al-Jazeera is in its slant and its views, you must accept that what it is providing is recognisably journalism. It is not always helpful to the American cause in Iraq, but then nor is the BBC; and would anybody in London or Washington suggest sending a Tomahawk into White City? Well, they might, but only as a joke. Exhausted Western leaders, living in the nightmare of a media-dominated democracy, are allowed to make jokes about blowing up journalists. I seem to remember that when I was sent to Belgrade to cover the Nato attacks, Tony Blair told the then proprietor of The Daily Telegraph that he would “tell Nato to step up the bombing!” Ho ho ho.
But if there is an ounce of truth in the notion that George Bush seriously proposed the destruction of al-Jazeera, and was only dissuaded by the Prime Minister, then we need to know, and we need to know urgently. We need to know what we have been fighting for, and there is only one way to find out.
The Attorney General’s ban is ridiculous, untenable, and redolent of guilt. I do not like people to break the Official Secrets Act, and, as it happens, I would not object to the continued prosecution of those who are alleged to have broken it. But we now have allegations of such severity, against the US President and his motives, that we need to clear them up.
If someone passes me the document within the next few days I will be very happy to publish it in The Spectator, and risk a jail sentence. The public need to judge for themselves. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. If we suppress the truth, we forget what we are fighting for, and in an important respect we become as sick and as bad as our enemies.
“In 1999 they managed to blow up the Serb TV station, killing two make-up girls, in circumstances that were never satisfactorily explained.”
17 people got killed on that occasion. Reason behifs is conclusion that Serb TV Station is too much of moral support to Serbs. On the other side Serb authorities were informed that day about mombing and yet decided not to act upon information they have received. I have never found out why. Have they made sacriface of those poor people or as it was told to me or is it TV CEO who was to drunk to pass the note to appropriate instances. Ever since I believe in former. However it does not make difference in question: Is it or Is it not, media of our enemy legitimate military target?
Boris: You describe what can perhaps be excused as a knee-jerk reaction on Bush
A bombing nation
Mirror – Bush planned to bomb Arab TV station al-Jazeera BBC – Bush al-Jazeera ‘plot’ dismissed: The White House has dismissed claims George Bush was talked out of bombing Arab television station al-Jazeera by UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. The…
I say, Bozza, please desist from publishing sentiments with which I agree. It is confusing.
From an American visitor, bully for your willingness to insist that these concerns be addressed on the basis of evidence and critical analysis, rather than innuendo and reactionary secrecy.
If I may I would wish also to add a general note of thanks, on this holiday in a former British colony, for the many excellent examples of investigative journalism accessible across the ocean via the wonder of the internet.
With respect and regards,
New Labour were always bleating on about freedom of information. It’s about time we had some when it mattered.
If Boris is happy to be tied to the stake Jean of Arc style in the cause of freedom, who are we to get in his way? He is a man of substance and will provide plenty of fuel for the flames of truth to rise up and consume one Anthony Blair.
D-Notice served, Boris says he’ll publish anyway
According to CounterPunch (thanks Jonny), HMG has served a D-Notice preventing further discussion of the memo in the press. Fortunately, Boris is no coward … I hope he does, and moreso, I hope the Govt prosecutes, that would be a peice of political…
If the Americans seriously wanted to bomb Al Jazeera, then it makes a mockery of their claim not to be at war with Islam. If they are indeed ‘at war’ with the Arab world in general, then Al-J would be a legitimate target wouldn’t it? I think this faux-pas by the Yanks simply confirms their unstated mindset.
Well done, Boris … stirs the blood to see someone willing to stand up and be counted in this way.
Have I got News for You?
We have just returned from tonight’s recording of the BBC’s ‘Have I Got News for You’. There have been rumours that Boris Johnson would soon appear. I didn’t know about these rumours so it was a pleasant surprise when Boris walked out. Merton and Hislo…
Hopefully, Mr. Bush’s remark was simply some black humor, as Mr. Johnson offers. If the remark was serious, then there isn’t any humor at all.
But if the C.I.A. is actually operating secret internment camps in Eastern Europe, then we freedom-loving Americans on the center-right are going to see it as the final straw in Mr. Johnson’s long list of disappointments we have experienced in Mr. Bush’s conduct of the war.
I completely agree with you Borris, I hope you can take this debate into the Common. We need to know the truth, nothing but the truth.
“New Labour were always bleating on about freedom of information. It’s about time we had some when it mattered.”
Yeah, right. Look at the way Labour choose their leaders, the way they kow-tow to the unions (even now). Since when was openness a part of the Labour arsenal? It’s a strange alliance: a hawkish US Republican r駩me and a supposedly left-centre UK Labour government.
The CP has not always been transparent, but this leadership campaign has been the most open and best managed of any party that I can think of.
May it be a harbinger of a CP government to come.
We’re Prepared To Pay The Price Of Freedom, Are You?
After Blair’s threat to jail any editor who reports the Bomb Al-Jazeera memo, we thought there would be an outcry. Who would stand up for press freedom, or at least the freedom not to be bombed to buggery?
One man has come out fighting. Boris Johnson:
The
We’re with you Boris. Here’s the deal. If you get it, send it to us and we will also publish it. We will also risk jail.
Would any other bloggers like to join us in this pledge?
I’ve no idea of what GB and TB talk about together but I guess I might be in hot water for
musing aloud on plans to murder certain of my colleagues
offering to mail the feet of some of my son’s noisier friends to the ceiling
planning to manacle Ken Livingstone in one of his bloody buses and let him travel around on public transport for a day
I ask for numerous other offences involving plotting dangerous crimes and unprofessional behaviour to be taken into account.
Come to that a number of comments on the thread about the Conservative Party leadership could be seen as threatening.
I’ve no idea of what GB and TB talk about together but I guess I might be in hot water for
musing aloud on plans to murder certain of my colleagues
offering to mail the feet of some of my son’s noisier friends to the ceiling
planning to manacle Ken Livingstone in one of his bloody buses and let him travel around on public transport for a day
I ask for numerous other offences involving plotting dangerous crimes and unprofessional behaviour to be taken into account.
Come to that a number of comments on the thread about the Conservative Party leadership could be seen as threatening.
The ‘Bomb Al-Jazeera’ memo
Boris Johnson: If someone passes me the document within the next few days I will be very happy to publish it in The Spectator, and risk a jail sentence. BlairWatch: We’re with you Boris. Here’s the deal. If you get…
We’re Prepared To Pay The Price Of Freedom, Are You?
After Blair’s threat to jail any editor who reports the Bomb Al-Jazeera memo, we thought there would be an outcry. Who would stand up for press freedom, or at least the freedom not to be bombed to buggery?
One man has come out fighting. Boris Johnson:
The
Jack –
Right – one has to ask what stupid A hole wrote all that stuff down. But I think is why Boris has got this issue right. He should offer himself up as a martyr because I think he will at least go down in the history books as the man who thereby brought to an end the Blair premiership. My reasoning is slighlty more convoluted than those circulating in the media at the moment.
My take is that:
It probably was all black humour, but the minute will show Tony Blair tolerating this discourse and humouring Bush, even if trying to dissuade him from the suggested course of action, and it will make him appear (a) stupid (b) immoral (c) weak. No politician likes to be thought of as all three at any one time! In other words the reason we are being prevented from reading the document is not that it contains state secrets or would embarrass George Bush – it’s because it would reveal Blair in such an unfavourable light that he woudl have to resign.
Streamtime concentrates on networking with Iraqi bloggers and on journalism and stories from inside Iraq, or involving Iraq. If the document will be published we will take it over and repost it immediately.
Field
OK so you have a purely instrumentalist reason and none the worse for that.
As a point of principle, should we, the general puntertariat, be privy to all converstaions between our (temporary) rulers? For example I imagine some of the conversations between Churchill, Roosevelt and (non-temporary) Stalin might be pretty damning. I hear that Martin Gilbert’s lates book might show that. Yet Chirchill and Roosevelt went along or were dragged along in WSC’s case, because **in general** there was no real alternative. At the time would it have been useful for these conversations to be publicly broadcast?
If Comrade Johnson is prepared to face the rigours of the law in this matter then he is an honourable man. Let us hope that they are not as rigourous as those dispensed by assorted Scouse scallies with a sense of humour bypass.
Since we are talking of suppression etc.. what do folk make of the decision to drop part of a play by Christopher Marlowe because it featured a Koran burning? No doubt this in the spirit of respect for other religions. This is allied with that other great artisitic principle of providing challenging stuff like Jesus in a nappy in the Jerry Springer Opera thing.
Or, since I at least am on the subject, should it be the case that since the ArchBish of Canterbury has apologised for the Crusades that there might be slight acknowledgement of the unpleasantness at the walls of Vienna in 1529 and 1683.
By all means keep on biffing at governement secrecy but I can’t help feeling that self-suppression of views, as opposed to being courteous, respectful or tolerant as the situation demands, is in many respects a more insidious cancer in an open society. The politicians can be fired but it is less easy to restore what is lost by the giving up of our right to say or write particular things because of fear of a section of society.
I’m not surprised that B&B discussed bombing Al-J. However, like Field says, it’s the stupidity of the note-taker that draws attention. Then, inept news management has just compounded the situation! Once it’s public knowledge, you should try to manage the media a little better than Blair’s office has until now, instead of slapping a D notice on it … That simply ensured that interest in the case wouldn’t go away! And I thought Labour were good at spin?!
Don’t bomb us
Nadat bekende raakte dat de Amerikaanse president George Bush overwoog om Al-Jazeera te bombarderen, is
Right behind you on this one Boris – it’s good to see a politician placing his gonads between the bricks for the sake of democracy and freedom.
Not that I particularly want to see Boris ‘doing bird’, but if he does publish and is convicted, and does time, then I think it would ensure Labour’s defeat at the next election! It’s the kind of opportunity that comes along once in a generation … Suddenly, in one fall of the judges gavel, the roles would be reversed in the Labour – nice / Tories – nasty game.
You surprise me sometimes, Boris. You really do.
I’ve come to this one late, having been away on business, but if you get any evidence that Bush did propose such a thing, then you’re welcome to bung it over to my blog for publication too.
Would somebody please provide to Cryptome at http://www.cryptome.org the contents of the disputed memo? John Young there explicitly asks for the Blair-Bush five-page document so that he may publish it in defiance of the Official Secrets Act. As a Texan born in Dallas, I am deeply ashamed of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the whole war-mongering crowd.
My “trust” list places Boris well above Bush or Blair. However, Boris is still well behind Menzies Campbell, John Humphrys, Jon Snow, Glenda Jackson, Diane Abbott, Clare Short and George Galloway. Keep working at it Boris…
Publish the Al-Jazeera memo and be damned
It must be said that subsequent events have not made life easy for those of us who were so optimistic as to support the war in Iraq. There were those who believed the Government’s rubbish about Saddam’s Weapons of Mass Destruction. Then th…
Dave McA
Having surveyed your trust list, and noted the estimable Diane Abbott who has at least the bottle to say by her actions that years of egalitarianism have ruined education, nevertheless you seem to have chosen a majority of people of character such that I would like to show you a few card tricks. We could have a little bet on whether you can guess the next card…
Dave McA:
Your list of “People of Trust”, is to say the least , not one to which I would subscribe. I suspect the card which Jack Ramsey’s entry mentioned would be the same colour as the ensign which the interfering A… holes in Brussels now say we should ditch in favour of a flag fit to grace an ice cream parlour.
I suspect that Jack’s card would also be the same colour as the politics
followed by the majority of the members of that list.
( Perhaps excluding Menzies plus two others, but I am not certain about them.)
OK, this is probably the first time I’ve ever said anything nice to a Tory.
But well done, Boris. You’ve said what every daily newspaper editor should have said.
(I’ve put my blog on the list to publish the memo too – why not, eh?)
BRAVO! Your courage and dedication on this subject is quite admirable.
The ‘Bomb Al-Jazeera’ memo
Boris Johnson: If someone passes me the document within the next few days I will be very happy to publish it in The Spectator, and risk a jail sentence. BlairWatch: We’re with you Boris. Here’s the deal. If you get…
As an American who despises our lunatic boy-king, I say bully for you, Boris! I hope you get your wish. As you can imagine, those of us Americans who don’t worship this cretin we call our president would also very much like to know the truth about this.
Hello, Boris-
Please continue this important effort, the sensible numbers in America are increasing and we are seeing evidence of rather large cracks in the Bush veneer. We believe this happened, and I personally believe it was no joke; these criminals are as hateful as the day is long. For a laugh, visit
http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/
where our fearless leaders have offered Judy Miller (formerly of the NYT and Metropolitan jailhouse) a job if she can get a copy of the document.
We must do everything we can to spread the sunshine and end this nightmare.
It’s important to distinguish the bombing of the Serb TV station from other charges in this current discussion – the comment above that suggests the station was providing “moral support” to the Serbs in their genocidal actions is an understatement – the station was a prime actor in the atrocities, much like the media in Rwanda, whose leaders (those of certain media outlets in Rwanda)were put on trial for war crimes in the Hague in the time since. Whatever the truth or falsehood of the current allegations in regard to Bush, Blair and the Al-Jazerra situation, the Serb example was, sadly, a much clearer case in terms of the role the station was playing in encouraging, motivating and organizing the violence.
Bush’s ‘Bomb Al Jazeera’ Timebomb
At 8:55pm Friday night an email arrived offering The Antagonist yet another opportunity to antagonise Tony B Liar, his cabinet of cronies and the underlying administration and establishment which has, with the full complicity, collusion and support o…
I used to think that the British were more civilized than we Americans are. No longer. You keep Blair in office, just as we continue to tolerate Bush, rather than throwing his mangy ass (excuse me, arse) into the Tower, or the Thames.
You disappoint me.
If we do not have the truth we do not have democracy.
ANOTHER BAD JOKE
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE in war between my propaganda and yours? Mine becomes the truth if I win the war. Or so it would seem. As previously noted, the Bush administration doesn’t believe truth is enough to win a
let us hear the truth, and let us judge it
we know he is an idiot
Bravo Mr. Johnson. Someone must have a copy of the documents somewhere. Please for the love of god click send!
Don’t be so silly Boris, you now that there is not the slightest chance anyone is going to go to jail over the memo, no jury is ever going to convict.
Mr. Johnson, I hope this information will be made public – and if you end up in prison for being involved, I have a wonderful cake-and-file recipe I’ll be only too happy to pull out.
You have a lot of support, within Britain and without. The truth must come out.
Thank You for helping us here in America! We need to know EVERY piece of truth! Then we can decide if it matters!
Boris
I would just like to offer my thanks and respect to you for putting pursuit of the truth ahead of personal considerations. I am a British citizen living in the US, and its refreshing to see some honesty and decency, instead of the sycophantic “yes men” we’re used to in American politics.
Respect to you, Sir.
If you visit http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage, what you’ll find is a serious journalistic endeavor, devoid of extremist and radical rhetoric. This is why Bush is so afraid of Al Jazeera. They can’t be written off as just a “bunch of whacko’s,” and they can’t be brought under the control White House.
If Bush can justify bombing Al-Jazeera for giving aid and comfort to Islamic Arab terrorists, I can justify bombing Fox News Channel for giving aid and comfort to Christian American terrorists.
Right on, Boris! We non-compromised Yanks are with you! Yours would be a geniune worthy sacrifice for principle, not like the BullshCo coverup enablement of Queen Judy.
Good on you. If enough people stand up and count themselves as willing to go to jail for this, they won’t be able to jail us all.
Bloody good piece, sir, and of course the remark made by Bush was no comical blustering: since when do comical remarks make it into Top Secret memos? By the way, over here in the United States we have university professors coming out and saying that the collapse of the World Trade Center (1, 2 and 7) was an inside job accomplished through thermite charges placed in the buildings, and not Arabs in planes. The planes were merely decoys (and no plane hit WTC 7?). So if Bush and company will kill 3,000 Americans to get at the oil in the Middle East, you think they’d think twice about destroying al-Jazeera headquarters in Qatar? Not likely.
Did Bush Want to Bomb Al Jazeera?
Simple answer in my view is Yes. It would be very convient for Bush and Blair not to have an TV station that they have no control over to be silenced. The US bombed the Al Jazeera Ooffice in both Bagdad and Kabul these were according to the US, an acciden
Go Bro
There goes your Christmas card from Mr Bush. No crudely hand-drawn nativity scene, featuring the infant Christ procliming his desire to ban gay marriage, for you this year
Greetings from Chicago. [Guy]-
If the Americans seriously wanted to bomb Al Jazeera, then it makes a mockery of their claim not to be at war with Islam. If they are indeed ‘at war’ with the Arab world in general, then Al-J would be a legitimate target wouldn’t it? I think this faux-pas by the Yanks simply confirms their unstated mindset. – [/Guy]
– Dear Guy,
I think it’s way more sinister than that. This cabal is so callous that they’re not really concerned whether a religious war is conflagrated by their actions, as long as it brings them and their associates money and power and (in some of their minds) glory. Some of these thugs have made a career of burning companies to the ground and being pulled out unscathed by their relations and friends (and leaving the “little people” holding the bag), some put the security of Israel before that of the U.S., some are hare-brained idealogues who actually think that “democracy”, as they perceive it (governments that are favorable to the U.S.) can be spread by force. They all came together under the black cloud of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) some time ago. These nasties have pretty much made a fiery wreck of our nation and others and refuse to claim any responsibility for it. And it’s all very complicated and sick living here now.
Yes, the leadership here tries to play up the “religious war” theme here with their hayseed base using “code words” (and they’re actually probably delighted that this memo has come to light–sends the right message to their base), but it’s just another tool in their moneypower belt. They just don’t give a leaping wank at a bouncing crumpet about the average American, much less people outside the U.S.
Peace,
Scott
We need your help to get rid of Bush and co. I’m sure we will all take up a collection for a good lawyer for you…. They are bluffing….
Boris Johnson MP – The Courage To Report
Boris…we support you…we’ll publish it forward with you. Here is an entry from the blog of Boris Johnson MP,the outspoken member of Parliament that set it off by pledging to publish the banned Blair/Bush/Al Jezeera memo:=============================…
Dear Boris:
A few phone calls will bag you the memo:
David Keogh, a former Cabinet Office official, has been charged under the secrets act with sending the memo on the Blair-Bush conversation to Leo O ‘Connor, researcher to the former Labour MP Tony Clarke.
Bravo from Canada. In some situations ‘secrets’ like this one simply must become public. We all, Americans included, need to appreciate how much trouble we are all in for at least the next three years. The open advocacy of torture and use of white phosphorus is enough for most civilized people, but I think it is time for the leaders of many nations to be unable any longer to avoid calling this madness by its real name.
I hope Bush was making a sick joke, but I would be surprised if that turned out to be the case.
Thankyou from Canada for wanting for truth.
If the story is not true Bush and Blair have nothing to worry about and they should release the transcripts otherwise why would the unwashed masses not think they were lying?
The damage to the reputation of the US and Britain continues with talk in the Kuwait governing body about moving away from pricing oil in euros rather than dollars.Is Qatar and the UAE far behind?
I can’t help but feel that publishing or even publicising this memo is playing into the Bliar’s hands.
After all it is a way he can demonstrate that he has succeeded in moderating the Whacko Dubya. That he’s not the passive poodle at the beck and call of a drunken coke fiend, who doesn’t know which way is up and which way is the bar.
The official secrets stuff is just to mollify the BushCo heavy hitters right at the time he needs to put a little daylight between himself and those now proven loonies. After all when the Mirror first contacted No10 they didn’t say a dickie bird almost as if they wanted the thing published. Hmmm?
Controversy Over Bush Bomb Al-Jazeera Claim Snowballs Even More
Call it the controversy that won’t go away…the controversy that has gotten attention here in the United States but is snowballing in Great Britain.
Was President George Bush merely joking when he is reported to have suggested bombing Alj…
I as a Be-American is not surprise about this new Memo. I believe it has an attack on Al Jazeera has occurred before. It is a channel that is available on cable in some part in this country on cable.
What you are doing is great. Our corporate Medias are imbedded with the military we hear nothing about what is really happening in our illegal war. I have always check your new on the internet because our is an administration mouth piece. Fox is a dangerous joke but the others are not much better. I did find one that is not available all over this country call Free Speech TV. It is one who is independent of corporation control, that is
Wow! What a response from accross the pond!
Well I shall add my support Boris, get that memo published so that we can end this.
I don’t think it will play into Blair’s hands, people would take it for granted that he would try and talk Bush down on such an absurd measure, although I am mildly surprised that he succeeded. I think the bigger impression would be something more along the lines of “who on earth are we allying ourselves with??”. For those who weren’t already opposed to Guantanamo Bay, the white phosphorus, the torture in Iraqi prisons and possibly elsewhere, and the use of WMD by AMERICAN forces, when that was one of the main reasons they gave for going into Iraq in the first place!!!
Some Great College Games Today
Kudos also to Boris Johnson….
Come on Boris, I cant see your signature on EDM 1088
“I’ll go to jail to print the truth about Bush and al-Jazeera”
But would you go to jail to print the truth about Al Jazeera and the “resistance” in Iraq? I didn’t think so.
“Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”
How about taking a whack at the Al Jazeera opinion piece detailing how Iraqi civilians are legitimate targets for terrorist attacks?
“If we suppress the truth, we forget what we are fighting for”
True. So when are you going to start digging into Al Jazeera’s background and operations to find out the truth? Is it more of a Muslim brotherhood allegance as has been rumored, or just a general rooting for the Baathist insurgents a la Reuters?
I’m glad the British journalists and bloggers are braving it out for the truth too. I would publish the memo on my [American] blog in a minute and to hell with what Tony Blair said. I suspect he’s just scared of Bush and the truth. In fact I’d bet any American blogger including me would be glad to put the memo on their blog. Blair couldn’t do a thing about it. Bush could, but he’ll be impeached in the next two years so that’s the longest anyone here would have to sit in jail.
If anyone wants more info. on how Bush really feels about Al Jazeera, [he wants them obliterated] see the documentary “Control Room.”
Ask Italian journo Giuliana Sgrena if she believes Bush was joking. The US opened fire on her car on March 4 while on US-approved route to the airport. Agent Nicola Calipari is dead and Giuliana survived only by a miracle.
Giuliana was one of the few reporters — maybe only reporter — to have the story about the US use of banned chemical weapons on Fallujah.
Some say her “kidnapping” before the shooting was by US interests and not so-called insurgents, too.
But, all just coincidence, said the White House. Hmmm.
Question?
Should Al Jazeera be able to prove that this Administration was responsible for the earlier attacks and the deaths of their reporters… Could they file war crimes charges against this embarrassment of a president?
also
Would you agree that the best thing that can come out of this is that we…as a free people…illustrate to the world how a democracy truly works! We will hold our representatives accountable! And by the letter of the law!
Cog-
I’m afraid I don’t think it really matters whether or not Al-Jazeera are biased, what matters is that the USA has no right to bomb them, and especially not at a location in Qatar rather than Iraq. Contrary to what Bush seems to think, by any modern standard the USA does not have the right to simply bomb anyone who speaks out against them. The war in Iraq had no UN backing, and was justified by (false) allegations of WMD, a dubious claim about Saddam’s immoral regime, and I believe in the USA also a (false) claim about ties to Al-Queda. Even with the first two relatively strong reasons, one of which was unproven either way at the time, the UN still resolved against the use of force. To suggest that they might support the use of force agaisnt a TV station, for no real reason at all, is completely absurd!
Even if I wasn’t interested in the clear attempts to limit free speech by bombing property in a strongly allied country, the only reason I can see for this (suggested) military action is that the USA doesn’t like what Al-Jazeera say! That’s not really enough reason to take any action at all, let alone a military one.
Blogging from behind the Republican Curtain … thanks for your help. Bring them down. Enough is enough.
Many people also doubt the “suicides” in the past year of famed American reporters Gary Webb and Hunter S. Thompson.
Thompson had partied with Dubya and reportedly was uncovering explosive details about the 9/11 myth. Webb, who broke the story of Bush 41’s cocaine ring within the Iran/Contra scandal, was in present contact with CIA sources who are in the wilderness because of its implosion.
More coincidences, or a neocon war on truth, war on journalists who don’t toe their line?
Thank you to the foreign press-if it weren’t for them most Americans would have not a clue what Dubya and friends were doing .
The neocon cabal has a tendency to kill what it cannot control.
Note to neocons-Al-Jazeera, unlike FOX, has a “code of ethics”. FOX could learn something from that.
Thanks Brits, help us return to a Democracy!
Sincerely,
One Angry American
I add my voice to the chorus of support for your stand on the memo.
But I beg you, when you list the catalog of atrocities, make the distinction between the Bush administration and Americans. It’s not “America,” or worse, “Americans” who are doing these things. The vast majority of us are totally opposed to all this stuff and horrified by much of it.
Please remember that Bush and his Republican Party storm troopers are in control of our government not because Americans support what they stand for, but through tricks and lies and cooking the election results.
Who will rid me of this sociopathic president?
Here it comes… I think
A tory Member of Parliament, which means he’s probably a bastard the other 364 days of the year, has offered to go to jail if that’s what it takes to get the Al Jazeera memo into the public eye. If…
To the comment that it isn’t Americans, but only their leaders, who are to blame, I must disagree. I’m an expatriot American who left because it was no longer possible to be part of what was going on.
The people elected Bush and Company. The people have chosen to put on blinders. Even now, when the majority have started to see the light, it isn’t because of any acknowledgement of their own complicity in matters. It is a continuation of their greed. They’re not upset at the loss of lives, devastation, and stolen resources in Iraq; it is the loss of American lives and the final realization that the losses may hit home. It is the increase in the cost of oil they care about, not the stolen futures of people all over the world to supply their oil addiction. It is still their greed that has resulted in the change of heart. So far, Americans have learned nothing.
Just take a look at how they don’t speak out about the abominable treatment of the displaced people of New Orleans, or the toxicity left in the city. Look at their complaisance as their rights are being stolen by the Bush administration.
Americans rise to the occasion for a symbolic moment of giving and caring – like sending money one time to whoever they’re told to after a catastrophe. But they don’t care on a daily basis. Else, how could they quietly accept the homeless on their streets – except to make sure they’re moved so that they don’t have to look at them? How could they stay quiet as their former coworkers lose everything and are unable to get medical care because they’ve been injured or become ill, can no longer work, and no longer have health insurance?
Americans may not really support what Bush and Co. are doing – but they don’t care enough to try to learn what’s really going on. They accept the ads and soundbites as truth. It’s so much easier that way. And when confronted with the truth, they refit their blinders to assure that no more of it gets through.
Perhaps this will change one day, but not until the vast majority of Americans realize that they’re all in it together. By then, I fear it will be too late for America. I just hope it won’t be too late for the world.
Boris Johnson, MP,
Could you bottle some of your courage and mail across the pond to us in America?
Our elected officials are still for the most part, afraid to stand-up to the great and powerful George Boooosh and admit their “YEA” vote to give him authority to go to war in Iraq was wrong.
DINO (D.emocrat I.n N.ame O.nly) Senators like Joe Biden (D-DE), Hillary Clinton (D-NY) and Joe Lieberman (D-CN) refuse to admit they were wrong and they find themselves at odds with their political base.
Keep up the good work and hold Poodle Blair’s widdle, feet to the fire. He needs a good cockpunch to knock some sense into him.
And to think, I once thought him to be one of the good guys?
Cheers,
Dartanyon
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Boris,
Thank you for saying the things that the US’ media is afraid to. Over here in the states, we are working as hard (or even harder!) to expose the Bush Administration for what they are. To the bloggers on this site, PLEASE don’t lump us together with the likes of Bush and his ilk! 64% of our country is solidly against the Bush cabal. He has embarrased the principals this country was founded on and caused irreversable diplomatic damage. Unfortunately for us, the administration’s lies & manipulation lead half of the country to re-elect him in ’04. People here have finally caught on, however. The tide is turning, please be patient with us! We do so appreciate all the help we can get in fighting the good fight against Bush, et al.
Dartanyon. I agree with your analysis ,100%. Blair and Bush( or if you really care , the other way round) have hoodwinked too many people for too long, and it is high time for us to prepare for payback.
Politically they may now be in the wilderness, but until the duly appointed opportunity for the masses to speak out comes round, we are all in Schtuck. Both Peoples picked the wrong horses in the last race.We lost our collective shirts.
You ROCK! Bless you for fighting for the truth, as many Americans have tried in vain to know since Bush stole the 2000 AND 2004 elections, but we feel powerless. Please DO NOT GIVE UP, and know that well over half of Americans want this idiot impeached, along with half of the Republican party!!!
Boris- Thank you for your brave offer of publishing the document. Good luck!
Colin- USA
I don’t disagree with Spider Woman’s contention that Americans “have chosen to put on blinders.”
Over the past many decades, we have come to accept the primacy of the military-industrial complex in our society, to the detriment of our educational, health-care, and social welfare systems. Moreover, we have acquiesced in the takeover of our government by corporate interests that have no room in their plans for social uplift except as it may benefit us peons incidentally or by accident.
All this has been abetted and enabled by a mass media enterprise that is far more beholden to those same corporate interests than to popular ones.
There will always be a small percentage of Americans–neo-Nazis, Christian dominionists, the most elite social classes–who harbor deep antipathies toward American democracy. However, as others have suggested here, the large majority of Americans do, I think, live by egalitarian, democratic values and many of those who once supported the Crawford Cretin are beginning to see the light.
As Bush himself might say, Seein’ yer leaders fer what they are is hard work.
So, tell me again what’s wrong with taking out Al Jazeera? I keep missing that part. Seems that if the US were to decide to do it, it would mostly be a service to humanity. And – make no mistake about this – if they wanted to take out that terrorist-enabling rag, it would already have happened, regardless you and your phony indignation.
Good on you, Boris – and a fine post.
A question: what’s to stop instant, anonymous online publication? Surely that’s the best way to go, if someone is scared of the consequences, but is in possession of the document?
Bravo, Boris. It’s time for an ‘I Am Spartacus’ approach. If every editor of the British dailies published the memo, would Blair and the AG really have the spine to prosecute all of them?
message form the “new” world…
Please keep in mind, Bush’s rise to power in the USA is not the product of the free market of ideas nor any democratic process.
He and the “new” right are part of a movement driving our once great nation right and theocratic, a movement molded and funded with billions of dollars Sun Myung Moon swindled form others. The USA is NOT the “America” you once knew.
Go here: http://www.cellwhitman.blogspot.com/
and you will see some of why Sun Myung Moon has more to do with our nation’s political climate than anyone.
Moon owns all the major TV production facilities in DC. The TV media is afraid to tell the people how involved he has been in forming the new right because they have worked with him also.
The USA is no more. The UK is also BLIND to what Moon is doing and recently let the head swindler back into your country. Read how Moon made hundreds of millions and by Japanese estimates, billions of dollars swindling the Japanese, targeting widows, here:
http://tinyurl.com/39ejt
I wonder if Bush, whose family has decades long ties to Moon, pressured the UK into letting the guy Bush’s dad called “the with the vision” into your country?
If you are one of those who laughs at Moon maybe you should check out his list of front groups found here: http://tinyurl.com/2nyhm
It’s not just the USA, the world has NO CLUE.
“the with the vision”
should read “the man with the vision.”
Read more on who is driving the USA bus here:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon.html
caramia, don’t you think that our Arab allies, Qatar, might object just a little to our bombing al-Jazeera, since it’s on their soil?
Or do you think we should just bomb them if they object?
Do you even think at all? I doubt it. Which would put you firmly in with the 34% of American nitwits who still support Emperor C+ Augustus.
oh, caramia, did you also know that US military headquarters are in Qatar as well? They might ask us to leave if we start bombing on their soil.
You are a ****ing idiot who doesn’t think through the consequences of actions, just like our boy king.
Thank you so much for agreeing to print the leaked documents, and risking jail time for your trouble. Somebody, eventually, has to tell the truth about Bush–in the States, our press has rolled over for him and never asked tough questions about anything he’s done. As someone already pointed out, BushCo is setting up the “military industrial complex” that Eisenhower warned us about. Us activists try telling it to the editors of our local papers, and they tell us we’re “conspiracy theorists,” even when we present them with all the facts we have. Someone has to speak up and tell the truth. Good for you.
MP Johnson:
Rest assured, sir, that this story is getting a lot of play on liberal blogs here in the United States. I’m mentioning it on my own blog tomorrow night.
Sorry, Spider Woman, you are wrong. The People did not elect Dumbya. The SCOTUS put him in the WH in 200, and Diebold did the deed in 2004.
Thank you, Mr Johnson, for your willingness to get to the bottom of yet another scandal that this WH seems to have no end to creating.
Since our own media have been carrying water for the mis-administration throughout the past 5 years,it is refreshing, indded, to find journalists brave enough to ask the hard questions and demad real answers.
Today, FOX (FAUX?) News announced that Dumbya’s approval rating is now at 28% and still falling. The American Sheeple are finally waking up.
Many Thanks from one very tired Anerican.
Boris. Yes, publish please, If you go to jail over this i`m sure that you will be sharing a cell with a lot more of us incl. Ian Hislop.
Go for it.
boris… go for it. hundreds of millions of people are rooting for you. the spectacle will be an informative and refreshing tonic, especially in light of the go-to-jail-for-no-reason-but-her-own-aggrandizement stunt pulled by that phony reporter (and shill for the bush administration) judith miller.
how in the world will the MSM spin your genuine journalistic martyrdom, after stopping just short of canonizing general judy?
Bloggers call for Al Jazeera memo publication
In the wake of Boris Johnson, Blairwatch and many other bloggers have have put themselves down as being prepared to publish the ‘Bush-Blair Al Jazeera memo’ should it become available. To join the growing call for disclosure and internet publication…
Spiderwoman: “Americans may not really support what Bush and Co. are doing – but they don’t care enough to try to learn what’s really going on. They accept the ads and soundbites as truth. It’s so much easier that way. And when confronted with the truth, they refit their blinders to assure that no more of it gets through. Perhaps this will change one day, but not until the vast majority of Americans realize that they’re all in it together. By then, I fear it will be too late for America. I just hope it won’t be too late for the world.”
Although you gave up on America by moving away. I stayed and have fought the war propaganda mentality of the neo-cons daily. Myself and the previous 49% minority of Americans against this Iraq War, and Bush for that matter, have managed to push documentation forward and question our Administration as to their policy and acts of unlawful detention, torture, propaganda and a laundry list of grievances I won’t go into here. If you’ve been paying attention, you know these grievances already. You’ll also notice that 67% of the U.S. population no longer supports Bush or this war. That is progress. It has felt like a lifetime to me and others, but slowly and surely, the truth and history, will prevail, regardless of the Bush-Cheney revisionism BS. These guys don’t live in a vacuum and they are finding that out these days.
(I’ll admit to being tempted to leave Texas and the U.S. myself after Nov. 2004. Just consider the mentality I have had to put up with in the overwhelmingly neo-con environment in Texas’ Bush Country.)
For Boris ‘You God’ Johnson: http://sinequanonblog.squarespace.com/journal/2005/11/26/-british…
“I’m afraid I don’t think it really matters whether or not Al-Jazeera are biased”
Tell that to the dozens murdered yesterday in a hospital, including many women and children. An interesting recent find by the Iraqi police? Terrorists with a stash of teddy bears rigged with explosives. Stuffed animals of the same make as those given out by the US military.
“what matters is that the USA has no right to bomb them, and especially not at a location in Qatar rather than Iraq.”
One, look at the source. If this was written, and that is a big if given the Mirror’s reputation, we also have no context. If it was a joke, albeit a stupid one, I have no doubt the Mirror would claim otherwise.
“Contrary to what Bush seems to think, by any modern standard the USA does not have the right to simply bomb anyone who speaks out against them.”
So you continue furthur on the road without proving the premise.
“The war in Iraq had no UN backing, and was justified by (false) allegations of WMD, a dubious claim about Saddam’s immoral regime, and I believe in the USA also a (false) claim about ties to Al-Queda.”
More of the same. If you cant be honest about this, including the mistakes that the US made in addition to those made by the UN, those countries involved with weapon sales to Iraq and the oil for food program, then you are not prepared to have a discussion about this.
“Even with the first two relatively strong reasons, one of which was unproven either way at the time, the UN still resolved against the use of force. To suggest that they might support the use of force agaisnt a TV station, for no real reason at all, is completely absurd!”
Again. Absurd.
“Even if I wasn’t interested in the clear attempts to limit free speech by bombing property in a strongly allied country, the only reason I can see for this (suggested) military action is that the USA doesn’t like what Al-Jazeera say!”
I dont like when they promote each successful attack by terrorists in Iraq. I dont like when they truck in anti-American protestors as a backdrop for their broadcast, I dont like when they pay people to protest, I dont like when they use stringers who coordinate their coverage with terrorists, I dont like when they allow Imams on who promote violence as a religous duty.
“That’s not really enough reason to take any action at all, let alone a military one.”
Well, I doubt you have even watched it. Al Jazeera has become hated in Iraq, besides being banned. Many of their stringers will not identify themselves.
On air, Al Jazeera has gone from hosts openly joking about describing those who work with the Americans and the Iraqi government as “collaborators”, to expressing outrage, albeit briefly when attacking Sunnis, over terrorists targeting civilians.
You don’t see any problem? Look up the op-ed piece detailing how Iraqi civilians were legitimate targets for terrorist, exuse me, “resistance” attacks using the flimsiest of rationales. Al Jazeera was paid to keep silent under Saddam, and now they are paid to distort and mischaracterize the current war in Iraq to stoke hatred and encourage more killing.
Some legacy.
Americans who know about this issue support getting the truth out. There are many bloggers here who would print it if they had it as well, I’m sure.
More journaliste have died in the 2 year conflict in Iraq than in the whole Vietnam war. I think that speaks for itself. Of course journalists have been deliberately targeted by someone under US control. Bush doesn’t believe in freedom of the press and there has been widespread intimidation and suppression of the media since he stole the 2000 election.
This story needs to get out. We need all the help we can get over here. Thanks for caring about the truth and justice.
Well said sir. I hope you get the opportunity to publish the memo.
Candidia and Al-Jazeera
Posted by Candidia Cruikshanks, CEO of Wealth Bondage Pony Boy, get your sweet little ass in here. I want those Al-Jazeera fuckers blown up! I want every last one of them tossed in a kennel. War is fucking Freedom and they had fucking well better say s…
Boris Johnson MP: Bush and Al-Jazeera
Blog entry from the Conservative MP and editor of the Spectator. Boris Johnson MP: Bush and Al-Jazeera…
As yank, I am deeply ashamed by the actions of that idiot bush and his “israel first” puppetmasters.
I am even more ashamed that most citizens of the USA are far too stupid to figure out that the 2004 election was fixed.
And what shames me most of all, is having to depend on foreign countries for accurate news.
Just bear in mind that at this rate, the USA will implode soon…
Relax everyone. Do you honestly think that GWB would do things the hard way by bombing Al-Jazeera, implying an aircraft or missile dispatched to do the job, when a faked Al Qaeda spectacular would be untraceable and achieve the same result. Is there such suspension of disbelief? Are people so stupid?
Candidia and Al-Jazeera
Posted by Candidia Cruikshanks, CEO of Wealth Bondage Pony Boy, get your sweet little ass in here. I want those Al-Jazeera fuckers blown up! I want every last one of them tossed in a kennel. War is fucking Freedom and they had fucking well better say s…
Of course, Little Boots will never admit defeat — at least on his watch. He is so egocentric (aren’t all sociopaths?) that he’d rather sit on his hands while the death count in Iraq climbs (2,107 US casualties as of today) and the budget deficit soars ($6.5 billion U.S. per month) and then finally, hand the entire mess over to the next noncom to occupy 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to end U.S. troop involvement in Iraq.
Of course, there are many who believe Bush’s Iraq war is a 100 years war. The goals and agenda of the PNAC gang intends to maintain an American presence in Iraq throughout the 21st century.
For those of us on this side of the pond who never voted for Bushco in either 2000 or 2004, we feel helpless, deeply ashamed and very angry at this son-of-a-bitch for what he’s done.
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The Bombing Jazeera Memo and What’s at Stake
Sunday Times: “…part of the discussion also revealed information about British and American intelligence sources in Iraq and military strategies. It is this material that the government is most concerned to prevent leaking into the public domain.”
The Bombing Jazeera Memo and What’s at Stake
Sunday Times: “…part of the discussion also revealed information about British and American intelligence sources in Iraq and military strategies. It is this material that the government is most concerned to prevent leaking into the public domain.”
Juan Cole on al-Jazira bombing plan
Juan Cole here comments on GW Bush’s imbecilic idea of bombing al-Jazeera, which we are led to believe Saint Anthony Blair talked him out of. (Hat tip: Ginny. Update: Spectator editor Boris Johnson is threatening to go public with the…
Dear All
If the mass of comments from our American friends are representative then maybe I have been wrong all along and Americans really are stupid!
There was an election in 2000 and a dispute about chads. This went to a legal process which found the result was OK. We have similar disputes in this country when counting votes and, traditionally, after 3 recounts a coin is tossed. If any of the officials took bribes etc. then let’s have the facts about that.
In 2004 there was another election. Again it was close but George Bush won.
Where is the lack of democracy, the totalitarian state, the Nazi menace?
Now some of you headbangers may be disappointed – “it’s so unfair”. I suspect your rage is like that of a child who hasn’t got their own way rather than your feeling about democracy.
It is strange that all the Americans that I meet, except one, of various political persuasions, don’t seem to have such a doom laden view of things. Maybe I should get out more? Or maybe you chaps should get your noses out of Michael Moore? You mustn’t believe everything that a bloke resembing a mobile cheeseburger tells you?
None of my previous remarks should be taken as being critical of people who, through no fault of their own, resemble mobile cheeseburgers. I myself have been taken for a giant kebab in a low light.
“jon said:
November 26, 2005 12:30 AM | permalink”
hello jon. it is important that those people were civilian. not to count mistakes made by airforce and other civilian casulties. what genocide? please don’t make mockery of what genocide realy is and compare kosovo with what happend in rwanda. its cheap and smells like hipocrisy. you could also say in the same manner that three year old girl killed during one attack is justfied since she was daughter of one of members of socialist party if you need to.
I am surprised Boris but I completely agree with your comments on Iraq and hope you can discover the truth re: al Jazeera. Have you read the fantastic book by Dilip Hiro: `Secrets and Lies` ? We have been lied to over and over. Make them pay Boris, make them pay hard.
—If the mass of comments from our American friends are representative then maybe I have been wrong all along and Americans really are stupid!
After reading your comment I no longer think that most brits had the sense to see through all the blatant lies fed us by Bush and his poodle.
–If any of the officials took bribes etc. then let’s have the facts about that.—
We have a judiciary increasingly taken over by extremists who don’t belive in the basics of our constitution.
But mainly my point is you are just not very well informed. They are tossing republicans in jail over here every time you look up. Try googling “coingate” or “new hampshire phone jamming republicans” or “abramoff scanlon” or “delay texas indictment” just to get you started.
The Republican Party in the USA is NOT what you knew it to be 25 years ago. It is not “conservative” either. I thought “conservatives” in the UK, unlike those in the US, could see past three inches in front of their noses. I guess not. Turns out they throw out “Micheal Moore” like the trained cult here.
Netwon
Always on the lookout for information. Are these extremists the judges throwing republicans into jail?
I suppose I had better let my fellow UK bloggers off the hook. Unlike most of them I’m not a conservative. Having examined my position in the political wasteland I find I am still something of a socialist. So please don’t label them as you see me.
Most of the US anti-Bushites sound very much like the characters we get in the so called Anti-war coalition. Various trotskyists and communists cosy up to Islamacist group to attempt to hijack the movement. The Islamacists ignore the atheism of the trots and comms, who for their part have suddenly cut back on talking about gay rights and have even ordered, in the case of the SWP, female members to wear headscarves as a mark of solidarity with their Muslim sisters at demos.
The most vocal of the non-communist, non-Islamacist are not concerned about their fellow coalitionists records in Soviet Russia, China or in the treatment of Muslims in most of the Middle East and elsewhere, as long as they are against Bush.
I respect the views of, what I hope is, the majority of this movement but I have nothing but loathing for the trotskyist, communist and Islamacist would be hijackers. For those who preach self-loathing of the West and screen these others I have nothing but contempt.
I understand one of the great slogans of the opposition in the US is Anybody But Bush. To raise your political opponent to the status of a Satan is perhaps going a little far don’t you think. There is the whiff of ‘mass movement’ with a ‘simple slogan’ much loved by Lenin in that I feel.
Perhaps you could organise Hate Days?
“After reading your comment I no longer think that most brits had the sense to see through all the blatant lies fed us by Bush and his poodle.” ~ Newton,
In a loud, crass sort of way, Jack Ramsey makes a peculiar point: Americans who voted for Bushco in 2000 and 2004 are stupid.
But, what he intentionally glosses over is this: Brits who voted for Poodle Blair aren’t the brightest bulbs in the box either.
.
Dictator Bush is the most dangerous terrorist on earth. The world needs to know that Bush was never elected – in 2000 or 2004; he was installed in two coups d’etat.
We are waiting for the treason trials to begin, for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove.
Sincerely,
Lori R. Price
Gen. Mgr.
Citizens For Legitimate Government
http://www.legitgov.org/
Receive the daily CLG Newsletter!
http://www.legitgov.org/#subscribe_clg
Well chums!
What an insight into the mind of the “American Resistance”!
I suggested that Americans who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004 were stupid? I dare say some were but probably most were not. I don’t suppose that the majority of those who voted Democrat were stupid either. I do think that anyone, American or not, who feels that a Utopian solution to a supposed conspiracy is the answer, needs to have a little think about things. May I suggest “The Open Society and its Enemies” by Karl Popper? It’s not as exciting as Michael Moore. In fact in places it seems dully obvious. But a careful reading should cure you of Utopianism, belief in Atlantis and a host of other ills.
I looked at http://www.legitgov.org/. It’s the usual soft foucus, how do you feel etc. A number of people have been rounded up to say they feel cheated. In some cases maybe it is so. In most I suspect it is because they don’t like the winner.
No doubt electoral fraud occurs but where is the proof that did so in these places or on a scale to swing the election? Do Democrats cheat?
In this country, due to the governement allowing unrestricted use of the postal vote, we have a problem where there is a danger of “community” block voting – e.g. Asians being browbeaten by “community leaders” or “community activists”. This is a serious flaw in our system but it does not make Tony Blair a dictator.
Dartanyon : once again you score a home run .
I, and many others have been saying the same thing about the proliferation of dull bulbs and blunt knives here for a long time.
Trouble is , the available alternatives didn’t seem to offer an attractive solution to enough thinking voters to make a difference.
Maybe next time: I live in hope.
Dear Boris,
Some of those suffering from cognitive dissonance brought on by a bunch of mercenary brown noses (with their own agenda in mind), thought they could get away with a smash and grab in those far flung lands. Some of those fools thought a splutter of musketry, and off would be the natives, at a loss what to do with their sticks and Guava fruit. Whom would then cede the oil wells and throw a thanksgiving party for such an excellent invasion. (Messrs Perle, Ledeen, Krauthammer, Krystol, Feith, Zakheim, Gaffney, all from that nice AEI not forgetting Lord Black of the missing or is that hoisted $450 million thought so, and said so ‘cakewalk to Baghdad’. In fact Mr. Krystol got a statue of Saddam and his scalp awarded to him on the telly too!)
Some of those lunatics thought as the Mayans were swept off the face of the Earth, and or Red Indians annihilated, and or Aboriginals disposed of, the bunch of Arabs sitting on the top of the black gold could be dislodged too. Much to their chagrin and in the words of the armoured columns commander in Basrah lamenting; ‘They have lost their fear of our armour’. Now are upset getting punched, forgetting the pain of the mother who is watching the shredded corpse of her baby, the father losing his whole family, the brother watching his kins’ flesh falling off and burning to the bone by white phosphorous (don’t mention chemical weapons)!
Now all of those war mongers after a quick buck, are left with a heck of a problem, the Iraqis aren’t giving in, the coffers are running low, and the dollar’s forward curve is telling of a hyper inflationary trend (Never mind Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, and Dove Zakim alone mislaying $2.3 trillion), so much so that Federal Reserve M3 report is no more to be published as from next March.
Finally, all this brouhaha about the secret documents, is no more than a cynical attempt by the poodle to turn lion by defying and influencing his boss. Lets face it, the documents are sent to a special constable for god’s sake (never mind an out of office MP), who then sends it back to the rightful owner, and now attorney general is not slapping a D notice but going on record to prosecute?
I should cocoa too mate, and the intrepid defender of the liberty that you are, now putting your neck on the line for, wow man that is so big of you! Only problem is; if you don’t know what is in that document then you are out of the loop and not with it mate, stick to your day job and just go around Borissing about!
As for those who are harping on about democracy the following are on record since the beginning, read and cry.
PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDENT REPORTERS IN IRAQ
http://homepage.eircom.net/~gulufuture/news/kate_adie030310.htm
PENTAGON THREATENED EARLIER TO KILL REPORTERS IN IRAQ
http://www.apfn.net/Messageboard/02-19-05/discussion.cgi.28.html
No doubt electoral fraud occurs but where is the proof that did so in these places or on a scale to swing the election?
It doesn’t take widespread fraud to win a close election. The U.S. is not a democracy: the people elect the Electoral College, and the Electoral College elects the president. Fraud in one close state — Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 — is enough to swing the whole election.
As I understand it the 2000 election is a more contentious issue than the 2004 one, and was basically concerned with what went on in Florida. The various things were at best completely improper, and in my view invalidate the result entirely. Having close family members in such responsible positions in the ballot is very bad practice, and the whole affair was unclear and compromised. If I was in a position to do so I would have called for a repeat ballot (except for postal votes I guess, which would simply have to be counted by hand). I don’t think it’s fair to say that Bush staged a coup. I used to think so, but in fact the winner of the Florida ballot depends entirely on how the votes are counted, and how lenient the standards on what counts as a valid ballot paper are. The vote was extremely close, with the final official result being a victory by 537 votes (0.009% more than Gore).
I can understand why opponents to Bush feel cheated by such a dubious result, and as I say, I would have requested not a recount but a repeat ballot.
To clarify, the first sentence/paragraph in my comment above is a quote from Jack Ramsey to which the second paragraph is my response.
This posting clearly has the potential to reach for the stars,Long may she run, and internatinally at that. The subject matter is indeed of international interest, a change from the domestic problems of the Conservative Leadership race.
“No doubt electoral fraud occurs but where is the proof that did so in these places or on a scale to swing the election?
It doesn’t take widespread fraud to win a close election. The U.S. is not a democracy: the people elect the Electoral College, and the Electoral College elects the president. Fraud in one close state — Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 — is enough to swing the whole election.”
What was the fraud in Florida 2000?
What was the fraud in Ohio 2004?
I seek clarification.
A democracy is not rule by the people – else we would have not had the abolition of capital punishment in the UK – but the ability of the people to change the rulers in a well laid out manner. That’s as good as it gets. If you are American then to compare your country’s procedures, with all their various warts, with the practices of real dictatorships, feudal anarchies and a bunch of other models of real oppression, is such an example of self loathing that I wonder how you can ever be content.
There is not such a thing in the so called democratic voting system as a state of perfection.
In the ever hectic chase to make things more evenly fair , we have introduced unlimited postal voting. If that is not the chink in the armour of anonimity in voting , I have never seen a greater one.
It has been proved that certaain sections of the voting fraternity have badly and sadly abused this privelege.
The authority’s having seen that the system is open to such crass abuse , what has been done to stop this abuse?
Nothing, that’s what. A politically correct stance has been taken, not to address this anti- democratic practice has been taken,as is the norm for this Government, because the abuse was seen to have been rife in certain ethnic areas.
The same thing will happen the next time we have an election, if there is not the political will to stamp on such practices, and hard, now.
What can be said about this local problem, can be said about the wider problems we discuss here.
The yanks blow up teleivision stations, and kill reporters………….. almost as often as they kill their allies, and considering their are a lot fewer reporters on the ground that is a bit suspicious as well. It is even more suspicious when the reporters being killed are invariably those reporting things the US thugs would rather were not known about.
That Bush and his Criminal Junta would consider blowing up the station in Qatar, is surprising only in the fact that Bliar was able to talk the Shrub out of it. Maybe Little Johnny Howhard was yelping a bit while on the end of Georges stick, and thus between the two of them they stopped him doing it.
I mean………. they can as seen, get away with almost anything, and frankly methinks it would not have raised many more eyebrows than have long since ceased to see anything real. There would have been just as many Braindead Idiots ready to defend the deed in the name of Peace and Democracy, or at least defending the Americans Peace and democracy.
After all that is what it is all about, the TERROR the Americans and some of our own sheeple by association, are beginning to feel for the rest of the world. The more they keep killing and poisoning the planet with weapons of mass destruction, like Depleted Uranium and Napalming civilians, murdering reporters and pillaging the planet, the more they will have need to fear an increasing and increasingly angry mass of people and nations. Our own damned weazels of governments , some of them, have also made their bed, their will be no parleying, they will be either enslaving the lot of us soon, or we will be tearing them limb from limb, because they will not loose their power with less than a fight to the death, theirs or ours.
This is Rabbit’s prediction, it is not a threat.
Even though he says this, he is now subject to arrest and incarceration, without charge and without his family may even be notified, and that is a FACT. The latest addition to our panoply of horror laws of oppression, is a sedition act which can now shut down virtually all serious reporting even of facts which are deemed damaging to the government, let alone openly criticising it based upon those facts.
God save the Queen?
F*** that privelaged old hag.
God help the rest of us.
QUESTION: “What was the fraud in Florida 2000?”
ANSWER: The United States Supreme Court
QUESTION: “What was the fraud in Ohio 2004?”
ANSWER: DieBold
.
When the only opposition is more or less in tune with the overall objectives, there is no effective opposition in any of our three countries at least. Our governments are the most widely despised in any of our recent histories, and yet the opposition in each case is either hobbled by its own internal crap, or as said not singing a very different tune.
Then we are all being defrauded at some basic level.
Ramsey,
You use the same little mind controlled phrases we get over here. You toss out Moore’s name like he is subhuman and should be run from and then you try and act like you aren’t one of these “haters”. You are as full of uninformed BS as the wingnuts over here. Had you spent the last five years here watching this unfold, I doubt you’d be doing such a poor job of playing Mr. Know it All. Do you always talk out of your arse about things you know so little about?
Anyone who is waiting for the US legal system to explain/confirm what goes on over here is a fool.
listen to this, send away for the report if you really care to know the truth..or are you just full of BS?
http://www.wpr.org/webcasting/ideas_audioarchives.cfm?Code=dun
Thursday
11/17/2005
9:00 AM
After nine, Kathleen Dunn is joined by political commentator Mark Crispin Miller, who says it wasn’t “moral values” that swung the 2004 presidential race… it was fraud. And he says it will happen again.
Guest: Mark Crispin Miller, professor of media studies, New York University. Author, “Fooled Again: How the Right Stole the 2004 Election & Why Thy’ll Steal the Next One Too (Unless We Stop Them)” (Basic Books)
Seeing I am in the e-presence of masters/mistresses of the art I humbly apologise for speaking through my posterior.
Since we missed 100 in all the excitement can I have a prize for getting 111? It’s 1/6 of the number of the beast.
I’m with Jack Ramsey and his recommendation of The Open Society by Karl Popper couldn’t be bettered.
The hysterical tone of some of the comments from what sounds like the Socialist Workers Party of America is very informative.
The truth is that Al Queda openly (in 1998)and Iraq, covertly, declared war on the USA, and by extension its allies. There is nothing that the USA coudl have done short of laying down its arms and inviting OBL to take over as President that could have stopped that war. Unfortunately Boris and a lot of other people forget that it was Al Queda who declared war on the USA and have never once suggested that they will ever renounce that war until they have destroyed the USA. It is clear from numerous sources that they plan to win the war by a series of devastating and simultaneous WMD attacks on key US cities. Soemthing which is well within the bounds of possibility.
Bush may not be the brightest penny in the purse but he deserves credit for having not shirked his duty. He flushed Al Queda out of its bases in Afghanistan. He has removed Saddam and the criminal Ba’athist regime, neutralising Iraq as a source of WMD threat to the West.
His colleagues failed him in not producing a workable post war plan for Iraq which would have got the people on side.
The problem we should be focussed on now is that
Iran needs also to be neutralised. We have not done enough to support the democratic majority in Iran.
We need a World Democratic Alliance led by the USA which will win this war on the militart and ideological front. The EU policy of always trying to avoid giving offence to Arab nationalists, Islamists, nutty North Koreans and other peace-haters will achieve nothing.
Hmmhmmmmb. Well, here are the tools: our words. A good wordsmith can patch together a fractured argument, restore abstract reasoning to composite sense and seperate notions from projected subtleties to produce the finer grain of truth. The wheat from the chaffe. I think that as astute as a writer or journalist may be in watching the world in that wholistic way, the risk runs inherent when meting out words to an audience; that the view becomes too constrained and myopic.
Thus, when a threat becomes as if looming on the horizon, it is almost as if it is symbolic of the silver graphic writing on a sideview mirror: objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear. Alas, though not quite an illusion, it is not reality. The only reason I can think of for such a law or decree coming into being is that there must be without a doubt someone in government with a keen eye on the pace of things.
Casting a quick glance at the preceding Great War that involved most or all of Europe and North America dont forget Japan, the leaders at that time reflected that it was likened to the same experience as the feeling one would have on a train that had rushed through its scheduled stop in which all were on riding. Not being of that generation my self, I can only imagine that it must have been less than exhilerating as a feeling. I think that given the technological age that we have arrived in, the one we are surrounded with, the journalist and the MP both have tools at their disposal such as the Internet and 24 hour satellite news. Consider the thought that propoganda has been a weapon of war. And nothing else. It renders lies as truth. I think that if it were my country, I think it would be because my rulers would want me to think about responsibility in the situation as it exists: not responsibility in a situation that exists post-haste and after the fact when the benefit of hindsight and 20/20 vision aid a person in rendering a judgement. To capitalize for whatever reason for personal glory or a chance to say I told you so. Doesnt it make us look good and feel better? So I think if it were my government, I think they are acting with a rule of law to prevent the further fomentation of war. To engage is to participate, and the only way to participate in the unglamorous prospect of peace is not to pursue war. The lines drawn in the technological framework in which we all communicate will be more and more devisive, not in the way we think in the traditional sense, because if we ponder and think long enough about it, the tool we make use of and is so accesible as it is ubiquitious
departs in every way from what we used to consider traditional. Its a technological wonder!
The lines will be drawn further in between the personal and the private, between the work world and your leisure.This is my prediction… given freely in the spirit of the moment driven by the times we live in. Instant communication across oceans apart. And I am thrilled to be able to participate. In this grande social experiment stretched across the paradigm of our connectedness
with others and with the world at large.
The ‘Bomb Al-Jazeera’ memo
Boris Johnson: If someone passes me the document within the next few days I will be very happy to publish it in The Spectator, and risk a jail sentence. BlairWatch: We’re with you Boris. Here’s the deal. If you get…
Field…
Sorry, mate, but you’re mad as a hatter.
Al-Qaeda may or may not have declared war on the West – but I’m damned if I remember Afghanistan, Iran, or Iraq doing the same. Come to that, why are you lumping these countries together? Would you accept someone invading this country because we’re a bit like the Germans or the French? Of course not.
Meanwhile, hurrah for Bush, neutralising Iraq as a source of WMD. Beg pardon? Have I missed something? Did we unearth a rusting cache of chemicals somewhere in the desert? Of course not. We can argue about our motives for going to war, but we can’t argue about WMD any more. They weren’t there. We (or our elected leaders) were just plain wrong on that one. Can we drop it now?
As for Bush’s colleagues failing him in not producing a workable post-war plan, why should they have bothered? They were only ever in it for the quick reconstruction buck.
Meanwhile, We’re supposed to ‘neutralise’ Iran? On what grounds exactly? Because they look a bit like the Iraqis? Because they disagree with us? Because they looked around the world and noticed the Americans and Europe cheerfully building nuclear power stations and thought it looked like a good idea? Because they wear funny clothes like those funny people in Afghanistan and Iraq?
How are we supposed to do this? A ‘World Democratic Alliance’ which will ‘win the war’ against the ‘peacehaters’ on a ‘military and ideological front’. What kind of Democracy will this alliance espouse? Where does it get its mandate? Who says Democracy’s the best system anyway? What makes us so right and everybody else so wrong? How are you going to cope with new political systems and new (and better) ways of organising society when they eventually evolve?
Think it through, man. and while you’re at it, can we stop using childish euphemisms like ‘neutralise’? Say what you’re really thinking – or don’t say it at all.
Plastering Bush all over a magazine… *snigger*
I’m glad to see that Nosemonkey shares my opinion on that memo, i.e. that it was just a bit of a joke…
So why the heavy-handedness from our Dear Leader and his cronies? Well, MatGB has some interesting information that may well throw some light on…
Jack R: “Seeing I am in the e-presence of masters/mistresses of the art I humbly apologise for speaking through my posterior.” – HAHA!
As for field, I do find it hilarious that anyone in Britain or the USA can accuse anyone else of being “Peacehaters”. I find the double standards absolutely astonishing, the UK and USA are by far the worst culprits in the world for all of this. We are loaded with nuclear weapons and WMD. We use them. And yes that’s right it was Iraq who sold Al-Queda weaponry, not the USA was it? I’ll have to remember that. The USA has BY FAR the largest number of deployed troops in the world (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/deploy.htm), almost 3/4 of the deployed troops in the world are american, and if you ignore turkey’s troops (all in Cyprus), then the UK is second. Taking the USA and UK together and it is over 3/4. To say that anyone other than us are “peacehaters” is a ridiculous claim, since together we have 3x as many deployed troops as the whole rest of the world combined. And we’re the ones who use white phosphorus, napalm, and MLRS on a regular basis. MLRS is not technically considered to be a bad thing, but I was speaking to a British Army Staff Sergeant about it a couple of months back, and he said that aside from nuclear weapons, it was the most inhumane weapon in our arsenal, and he hated ever using it. The USA is also, of course, the only nation to have ever used nuclear weapons on another one. Oh and we torture our prisoners (held without being charged), withold their names and identities, and refuse various strongly worded requests from the UN.
The actions of the USA have been among the most abhorent of any nation in recent years (I’ll concede there are certainly competitors), and we should attend to that before we start lecturing the world (or going beyond mere lecturing), on how to behave.
Britain gives approval to torture, claims Amnesty
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article329425.ece
My goodness, just what did Bush promise Poodle Blair if he took the UK down the path to hell with him?
.
Jack
Sorry! The comment was not aimed at you or the others who disagree with me fervently but courteously, rather at the gentlemen (?) who were rather rude.
Here, Here Mark!
This new al Queda Field is going on about, is a deadly organisation just like the last one before the name change (al Qaeda) by Field. At any rate al Qaeda is the figment of imagination of one Mr. Scott from pentagon, who was aiding the case for prosecution of the first lot of the WTC bombers back in 1993. Main reason for christening of this organisation (al Qaeda, meaning the base, so we are told) being RICO Act (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) making the prosecution of the guilty a lot easier on the prosecutor (scant burden of proof). However, trouble being the semantics associated with Qaeda, few of which are; ‘Bottom’, and ‘Menstrual cycle’ or ‘Menstruation’ with worse being the derivatives of this Qaeda thingy turning up as ‘Anus’.
Now, as we all know hard men and terrorists, usually go onto calling themselves impressive names, like Army of…., or Lions of Desert, Hawks of the …. They don’t go around calling themselves Dung Beetles of the Desert, or Tampons of the river bend! But as indicated it was Mr. Scott who was inventing them, so he was looking to impress his audience closer home. Hence the choice of Q, this letter is one of those scary, and sinister letters in English, as verified by James Bond and his deadly cohort Q, and the other sinister guy A. Q. Khan, now this guy’s name is Abdul but calling him Abdul conjures up the image of a pizza delivery guy, and will not scare the dickens out of anyone, and so the Q ed names keep popping up everywhere, these days.
Notwithstanding, the above, next there arose a need for images of these scary guys, and so as in Bond franchise we have, Sean Connery, Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan, and the other one, so in case of the ubiquitous Osama or if you are Jeff Hoon, Usama, bin Laden has so far been played by differing actors, but they are not lucky enough to be house hold names, this can be verified very easily in this URL:
The Fake bin Laden Video Tape
YOU ARE LOOKING AT A US GOVERNMENT LIE
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html
Is the 2004 Bin Laden Video Tape A Fraud?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape2.html
With a further twist coming in the guise of an obituary posted in an Egyptian paper that can be found here:
Osama bin Laden: A dead nemesis perpetuated by the US government
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html
Nevertheless there is always a Field to nurture the poppycock that the Main Stream Media is dishing out, at the behest of their masters (Peter Mandelson: ‘we will not be content with being persecuted by the media, we will use them and utilise these’). Then Fields go onto neutralise all and sundry to bring about the global democratic front, as in Gitmo, kidnapping and extra ordinary rendition, and extra judicial detentions. All the while grinding their little axe for the sake of tribal, and or primitive imperatives.
Forgetting the last debacle that the world is still recovering from, in the current climate of lawlessness. Also the probability of proliferation of the current war to a global level with other players joining in to look after their own little patch, short of which means a full and final conflict, after which they can fight the next world war with the stick and stones all round.
Mark Gamon said:
“Field…
Sorry, mate, but you’re mad as a hatter.”
AND
Jack Target said:
“As for field, I do find it hilarious that anyone in Britain or the USA can accuse anyone else of being ‘Peacehaters’. I find the double standards absolutely astonishing”
—
Thanks, guys. My blood pressure was going through the roof and skyward …
Bravo. I couldn’t agree more. Field is 100% nuts on this subject.
Dear @…
Who’s this ‘Poker’ person? Bit of a dodgy way to keep up the comment count, don’t you think? 😉
Its excellent that you would put yourself on the line. Well done you are a very courageous man. Gook luck in what you do.
Poor Poker has OCD.
And @ may be on a late lunch – well deserved.
Do any of you know that Osama Bin Laden was a CIA oprative under the name of Tim Osman?
http://www.orlingrabbe.com/binladin_timosman.htm
In my eyes the whole al qaeda thing stinks. They seem to pop up at the most convenient times. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Quite frankly the 911 commission is a load of Bull Shit. LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE PEOPLE. NO PLANE CRASHED INTO THE PENTAGON JUST DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH THE TRUTH IS STARING YOU IN THE FACE. WAKE UP AND TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN THOUGHTS DON’T BUY INTO THE PROPAGANDA ON THE NEWS THEY HAVE PROVED THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED with a few exemptions.
http://www.letsroll911.org/
Greetings from America. Please help get this memo published. We deserve the truth.
Boris,
THANK-YOU.
It is past time for the truth to be told.
As a ex-pat living in the US, I have watched with disbelief as both Bush and Blair, have been allowed to ride roughshod over every international law in their push for war, regardless of the facts.
It is time for them to be held responsable for their actions and time for us all to stand up for the truth..
If you do manage to get a copy of this memo,send it out to everyone. We will publish it everywhere. Just let them try and shut up all of us….
Ramsey,
check out Miller on C-Span Washington Journal. Nov. 27.
http://tinyurl.com/8ee95
I assume that poker is some kind of advertising bot, doing something or other that we no doubt need no part of? Perhaps his posts could be deleted (along with this one…)?
Poker would appear to be a spambot. I’m sure Melissa can deal with him/her/it. And delete both you and me, Jack.
Approval for Blair
Field’s comments were
I’m with Jack Ramsey and his recommendation of The Open Society by Karl Popper couldn’t be bettered. (I agree)
The hysterical tone of some of the comments from what sounds like the Socialist Workers Party of America is very informative. (Certainly sounded a bit like our own dear SWP but perhaps lacking irony).
The truth is that Al Queda openly (in 1998)and Iraq, covertly, declared war on the USA, and by extension its allies. There is nothing that the USA coudl have done short of laying down its arms and inviting OBL to take over as President that could have stopped that war.
(I think this was true as far as AQ is concerned. Saddam had no compunction about taking Western hostages during the war over Kuwait so I suspect that had he ahd the emans he would have been quite happy to carry war to USA and Europe).
Unfortunately Boris and a lot of other people forget that it was Al Queda who declared war on the USA and have never once suggested that they will ever renounce that war until they have destroyed the USA.
(This sounds reasonable)
It is clear from numerous sources that they plan to win the war by a series of devastating and simultaneous WMD attacks on key US cities.
(Don’t know about this)
Soemthing which is well within the bounds of possibility.
(An article in the Independent (yes the Indie!) earlier his month provided an account of how members of Saddam’s team to develop nuclear arms had be quietly stood down and ordered to hide bits. I don’t know how far away they were from getting there. Saddam, with delusions of grandeur, may have overestimated. Whether it is within the bounds of possibility I couldn’t say but within the bounds of saddam’s capricious imagination – most ceratinly)
Bush may not be the brightest penny in the purse but he deserves credit for having not shirked his duty.
( Why is it OK to suggest that people from Texas are thick or people from East Anglia have webby feet but we can’t be rude about the Irish any more? I think he deserves credit)
He flushed Al Queda out of its bases in Afghanistan.
(True but there’s still a lot to be done)
He has removed Saddam and the criminal Ba’athist regime, neutralising Iraq as a source of WMD threat to the West.
(Saddam wanted to develop WMD and not just so he could go to disarmament conferences)
His colleagues failed him in not producing a workable post war plan for Iraq which would have got the people on side.
(This is true)
The problem we should be focussed on now is that
Iran needs also to be neutralised. We have not done enough to support the democratic majority in Iran.
(Mark objects to the word neutralised. I think Field indicates what he means with the next sentence. Iran has some (distorted) experience of democracy. Many of its younger people are fed up with Revolutionary Guards stopping them dancing too closely etc.. I believe a majority did not vote in the election because they really felt they had a bad choice and a worse. Whether that was wise is another matter)
We need a World Democratic Alliance led by the USA which will win this war on the militart and ideological front.
(We often don’t get what we want and sometimes not even what we need. However this is part of a war between imperfect open societies and ideologically Utopias. The war is economic and cultural as well. In fact it must be primarily that)
The EU policy of always trying to avoid giving offence to Arab nationalists, Islamists, nutty North Koreans and other peace-haters will achieve nothing.
(They’ll be handing over the keys of Vienna soon).
Looks like the men in the white coats are coming for me as well Field. I hope we can have PCs and the Internet in the asylum.
Paul
That’s Mr. Ramsey to you. I did as you bade and found it was the site of the local paper for Washington (in Tyne and Wear I believe). I’ve no doubt it’s an excellent paper in its way but when I tried to look at the issue for Nov 27th all I got was
The page cannot be displayed
(I bet young Mr. Moore knows why!)
The Cry of a Disillusioned Hawk: Boris Johnson on Bush & al-Jazeera
But if there is an ounce of truth in the notion that George Bush seriously proposed the destruction of al-Jazeera, and was only dissuaded by the Prime Minister, then we need to know, and we need to know urgently. We…
Well said Boris; you are a credit to the nation.
Al Jazeera is to the ARAB world what FOX (aka FAUX) NEWS is in the United States for sure.. Does that mean that it’s OK for opponents to bomb their New York Headquarters?
I really wonder as I know FAUX to be the same because I click on the station and don’t even need a stop watch to randomly see who the support. They support Bush within 14 seconds normally and fight for every word he says and when they can’t, they talk about how bad President Clinton was/ or even still is.
FOX(AKA FAUX) is a fake. Blair is an accomplice to Bush.
In a different world
In a world in which privacy is often sold out for false security more and more governments seem to think that their “private” conversations should be subject to some “Official Secrets Act”, so that nobody can blame them for wha…
I am amazed at the reaction to this post.
Although if anyone had asked those high up in defence, their view would have been that post-Iraq nothing much was planned. So here we are in the aftermath of the war trying to pick up the pieces. There is no way the US should now disappear into thin air. The US should stay until we see some semblance of democratic and stable life emerging.
MARK GAMON, JACK TARGET AND NORA
Sorry to allow Poker to invade for a few hours – how dare they!
Thank you for pointing that out and helping with policing the site.
Here we go again, in the century of fear, that started with the apocalypse not of the millennium bug, and ever since has steadily gone down hill. Evidently in a perverse fashion some have grown to enjoy this state of affairs, hence the manifest disregard to already posted data, and continual regurgitation of the drivel so spewed by the various interested parties, and disseminated through the official propaganda organs known as Main Stream Media.
There is no al Qaeda! This fact has been in public domain since the end of 2002, and beginning of 2003. Including on BBC broadcast of ‘Power of Nightmares’. The little gem of a document that has been subject of the excited discussions, is supposedly five pages long, and so far only the bit about Al-Jazeera is in the public domain. What else it contains remains a secret, but secret is not the German NDRTV program directly linking Qatar (CENTCOM HQ) to al Qaeda (before March 2003):
‘Qatar, now seat of the American headquarters in the war against Iraq, can be directly linked to al Qaeda.
Qatar’s minister of interior directly supported Khalid Sheik Mohammed (mastermind behind the September 11 terrorist attack) and personally prevented his arrest, prior to the attack on the Word Trade centre.
While Qatar government underwriting the various al Qaeda activities by money transfers to al Qaeda.’
More information here (German):
http://193.97.251.26/ramgen/media/tv/panorama/20030327_Katar.rm
This fact can be corroborated in a round about fashion in this Sunday Times’ article:
Qatar buys off Al-Qaeda attacks with oil millions
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1592472,00.html
Portraying Qatar as a victim of the terrorists, since any other portrayal of this story then would bring Israel into the fray, and boy that will open up a whole new can of worms, starting with the spy scandal in US.
Fake Al Qaeda The Phony (Mossad) Al Qaeda Cell in Palestine
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html
Mossad Exposed in Phony `Palestinian Al-Qaeda’ Caper
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2949idf_qaeda.html
So can all the paranoid lot, who enjoy this kind of perverse thrill in their otherwise mundane lives get on with some fair ground rides instead please?
Sorry to hit a sour note, but Democracy, as we understand it, is not what is required in Iraq. Iraq needs stability, which it will find within its own borders, without the interference, masquerading as help , from foreign cultures. To promise universal suffrage, is to promise something incomprehensible, ( as yet), to their culture . Their way of life is different from that in the West, it does not , in any way , make it inferior.
The Alliance should plan , and announce a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, the sooner , the better, for all sides of this conflict.
The mores and tenets of the Iraqi people , regardless of branch or sect of Islam are far removed from that which the West sees as normal.There is but one law , and one scripture in Islam, a unity : comprising what is , for Islamic peoples, a simple , non-arguable legal / religious system, to be followed by all, in relative harmony.
We , the West , as ” INFIDELS “, have to respect the different socio-religious structures of the Iraqi peoples, and , if possible , help to restore the previous ante-Saddam balance , which appeared to work to the satisfaction of the vast majority of citizens.
Priorities!
I don’t care if al-Jazeera is calling for the immediate incineration of all we hold dear – the Speccie, the works of PGW etc.
I have just heard on the Home Service that there is a week of commemoration of the death of John Lennon. 168 hours of that abysmal dirge Working Class Hero.
If Mr. Bush really wants to bomb a radio station……
Agreed, Jack.
I have just listened to one from the US inner circle , a Colonel Lawrence Wilkison, former deputy to Colin Powell
He explained that D.Cheyney is alleged to have sanctioned the ignoring of the Geneva convention , in particular for those suspected of belonging to AlQaeda. Further he is said to have sanctioned the torture of these people. When asked if he thought Cheyney could be prosecuted as a war criminal , Wilkison answered “, That’s an interesting question”, but did not elaborate.
He went on to say that the CIA were aware of the spin, even downright lies , told about WMD: its informant was a German agent , going under the name of ” Curveball”, who was deemed highly reliable.
The CIA did not pass on this information to Colin Powell , despite Powell’s having spent 5 days within the CIA HQ.
A can of worms is in process of getting tipped onto the international table. A lot of big fish could be lannded.
Mac
You’ve put your finger on a tough problem. You are right to the extent that democracy cannot be imposed. Whether it can be nurtured in Iraq remains to be seen. Many Iraqis are aware of the democratic way and in the Kurd areas seem to be making a reasonably rough and ready go of it.
At some stage though globalisation is, whether we or they like it or not, going to strain old established ways of life. In China possibly the one good thing about Marxism was how it threw aside repressive traditions, only to replace them with a new repression at the cost of millions of lives of course. I am not advocating Marxism (Ironically Marxism is probably the most deadly European export, far worse than alcohol or the West Indian slave trade. Also ironically I believe Marx spoke of capitalism knocking down the walls in China for socialism whereas Marxism seems to have done the stuff for capitalism).
Democracy in China is still does not exist in any effective way, though democratic ideas are percolating and the influence of Christian churches is a positive force here with respect for the individual.
However globalisation has definitely began to affect China in a big way. Quite probably there are huge strains which still need to show themselves. But the deep rooted traditional closed society has been enfeebled enough, in the cities at least, to allow capitalism to begin to develop. This is no guarantee of democracy but I think it renders a more fertile soil for it.
Millions of Iraqis turning out to vote may be as two sparrows. Saddam’s secularism has negative consequences – a turning towards traditional Islam in reaction – but also positive ones like a period of time free from oppressive religious thought. Like Marxism I wouldn’t recommend it but the law of unintended consequences works against the bad guys as well as the others.
So I think your picture may be unnecessarily pessimistic. Other pictures have been hopelessly optimistic.
It’s always difficult making predictions, especially about the future (not original alas! Yoga Beri). I think the 21st century, if we survive, will where capitalist globalisation more or less completes itself. This in itself is no guarantee of freedom or democracy. However democracy only seems to work in societies where there is a market, and capitalist democracies seem to function best. The problem is how to smooth the transition from closed to open societies. No easy answers!
The ‘Bomb Al-Jazeera’ memo
Boris Johnson: If someone passes me the document within the next few days I will be very happy to publish it in The Spectator, and risk a jail sentence. BlairWatch: We’re with you Boris. Here’s the deal. If you get…
Boris Johnson Returns From The Dark Side
I used to be a great fan of British MP and Spectator editor Boris Johnson. Politics aside, he generally comes across as a lovable buffoon, which I don’t mean to be negative in any way. Have I Got News For…
Jack Ramsay
Sorry, but I still object to the word ‘neutralise’. It’s possible in using that word Field meant that we should encourage the Democratic process in a peaceful and non-invasive manner. But the general tone of his post suggests to me that if gentle encouragement fails he’ll happily support military intervention – ‘neutralising’ Iran in much the same way as we neutralised Iraq and Afghanistan.
I may be wrong. I hope Field pops back in here and clarifies his thinking for us.
Meanwhile I’m thinking back over the history of our sceptred isle (and the US come to that), trying to identify an occasion when we invaded another sovereign state without having been attacked first and it all went well in the end.
Nope, can’t think of a single instance.
We invaded Serbia without having been attacked, and depending on your opinion it ended well.
I find it interesting that you consider Iraq ‘neutralised’ – given that 81 american soldiers have died this month, among well over 15000 so far.
The most recent being two as yet un-named soldiers who died earlier today north of Baghdad under hostile fire.
That’s along with 13 last week (3 of which were non-hostile: 1 unspecified injury, 1 vehicle accident, and 1 to illness)
In fact over the past month of November, only 4 days have gone by without any american casualties. Oh, and also 159 Iraqi police this month, and 561 civilians.
Total of 801 deaths this november in Iraq, 240 of whom are american soldiers or Iraqi police. Sounds neutralised to me.
Afghanistan is much better, with only 7 dead soldiers this month (3 US, 1 German, 1 Canadian, 1 Swede, and 1 Portuguese).
They included a Lieutenant Col. and 2 Sergeants 1st Class mind you. And 126 dead so far this year (only a little over every 3rd day!)
Jack T
You may have a point with Serbia, provided you’re referring to the recent Balkans conflict and not the first World War. I seem to remember the Kosovo thing being a last resort after UN peacekeeping had failed. Can anyone remind me how we did get into that?
Re Iraq: nope. Definitely not neutralised. Though I rather think the Pentagon was hoping it would be by now, don’t you? In much the same way as they probably hoped they were neutralising Vietnam and Korea.
Your casualty figures are fascinating. That’s an awful lot of dead people. And exactly what have we gained, in Iraq and Afghanistan alike?
Well chaps
I did try to indicate what I thought Field meant by neutralise, though he may wish to say otherwise.
“Mr. Churchill, the Luftwafe are bombing hell out of London – just what have we gained by this intransigence”
No, I am not suggesting that Mr. Blair is Mr. Churchill, rather that there are unforeseen costs and there is never any guarantee of success.
Although Dr. Kelly, whose first name I have forgotten, felt that there were no immediate WMDs, he did support the war on account of the fact that Saddam had tried previously and still wished to develop them. You may think it unfair not to let him (Saddam) develop them in his own time but when it comes to a choice between a “Texas cowboy” or Saddam possessing them, then I’ll sing “Home on the range” any day. (Fortunately this blog is not equipped for sound yet).
Had the coalition not intervened would Iraq just have chugged on as usual, with Saddam’s massacres but no WM development? I don’t think so.
I have been informed, indirectly through URLs, by, I think, several our American cousins in the SWP of A, that Al Quaeda does not exist, Mossad did the Twin Towers, the Americans did the twin towers, no one did the twin towers and, for all I know, Gandalf did the Twin Towers(Two Towers). I’m still pretty convinced it was Islamacists from AQ. I would like to know if the SWP of A is supporting the “insurgents” who, according to the BBC this morning, “executed” Margaret Hassan some months ago.
Jack remarked that the US of A is the only country to deploy nuclear weapons in a war. True. Many thousands of allied troops as well as Japanese troops and civilians were thus saved. Many of my generation remember ex-soldiers of our parents generation being very grateful for it.
As an unintended consequence it probably had the effect of preventing its use in the Cold War.
You may have noticed, since that occasion, that the US of A has not used nuclear bombs. (Oh all right I know there’s all those times they are “not telling us about” when they blew hell out of Much Binding in the Marsh but covered up with the help of HMG (see SWP of A for suitable URLs) – but apart from that).
So it’s unfair the USA having all those nukes. I certainly wish they had fewer. But I am not going to lobby for them to share them out with every country in the world. Would you really like the present North Korean and Iranian administrations to have nukes?
Please be assured that I respect both you chaps and do pay attention to what you say. I happen to think the world is a messier place than perhaps you do, and there are very imperfect, crude and blunt movements for ‘the right thing’.
Jack R – respect bakatcha, old chum.
Please ignore the mad Americans. As you can see, one of them has crept onto the site in the post immediately preceding this one. Chips will grass unconditionally, indeed.
Re the nuclear weapons thing, I’m all in favour of nobody having the damn things. Least of all us, because we can’t justify the expense. Hwever I seem to remember reading that Iran is actually proposing a nuclear POWER programme. Must as our own PM proposed this very morning.
If we ever want to be friends with the Islamic world again, we’re going to have to be veeeeery careful with our double standards.
You may be right about Iraq not chugging along as usual, had we not invaded. Equally, they might have gone chugging right along, gradually becoming more and more economically infirm (as I’m sure they were) until eventually the whole Saddam pack of cards collapsed in on itself. Rather like the old ‘Evil Empire’ behind the Iron Curtain collapsed.
We’ll never know, I guess.
Meanwhile, I’m still not clear what ‘neutralise’ actually means. Invade? Bomb? Reconstruct? Convert to Christinity?
Field? Can you help?
(it was David Kelly, by the way)
But I am not going to lobby for them to share them out with every country in the world. Would you really like the present North Korean and Iranian administrations to have nukes?
——————————————–
What a load of chauvinistic, incoherent drivel?
Pray tell what kind of regime do these countries have? Do they feast on babies arms at dawn and for supper do they gorge on the floppy doplly eyes of the virgins?
If the intent is to make yourself stand taller by running someone else down, then find a crate and stand on it instead mate! On the other hand if this is to be considered some kind of an informed opinion espoused then get your facts right!
As for the DPRK ( after sixty years they have earned the right to be called the name they wish to be called by, don’t you think?) Clinton had struck a deal; two light water reactors built by the US. As well as shipping 500,000 tonnes of fuel every year. DPRK in return forfeited Yongbyon reactor and shut it down . Then along came Dubya and his band of merry neocons, and the deal was off the table. Further they started beefing up the US military presence while discouraging the South Koreans from closer cooperation with DPRK.
Yongbyon 5-MW(e) Reactor
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/yongbyon-5.htm
However, the prize in mind of the neocon cabal was not DPRK, since it was an incidental inconvenience on the road to Beijing. While Russia stood to be threatened too. Hence the involvement of both countries in the six party talks, that was sabotaged by the kick down, and suck up John Bolton to begin with, and did not get anywhere until his departure to UN, which was followed by the resurrection of the old Clinton deal. Although, in the mean time DPRK leaving the NPT, and kicking out the IAEA inspectors went onto extract enough plutonium to build eight war heads.
Absurdly, DPRK admission to owning these Atomic warheads was greeted with the scepticism of neocons. In fact the sceptical Edward Luttwak leading the charge for his enocon brigade, appearing on the BBC maintained that DPRK does not have any nuclear war heads, and if there is such a device in a barn somewhere in DPRK, that does not mean it could be used, since they have no suitable missiles to carry these! The about turn of the neocons now screaming at DPRK ‘oh no you don’t have any bombs’, was in direct contrast to their earlier posture of ‘oh yes you do have the bomb’. Alas these discrepancies were not debated, and or discussed in any of the MSM, but hey who expected anything other?
So far as Iran is concerned, under article IV paragraph A of NPT, any signatory to NPT has an inalienable right to peaceful nuclear technology, including full fuel cycle (after all no need to build an expensive reactor only to burn cow dung in it.)
Further, under NPT mark 1, there was no need to notify IAEA about any activities, so long as there was less than two kilos of uranium involved. However, as ever the washhouse protocols have been over riding the international law, and the same lickspittles who sold you the Iraq war, got busy whining on about the mushroom clouds further down the road. Evidently why spoil a good recipe? Hence the ridiculous claims, and absurd stories about Iran, and her ‘intentions’, with no irony about the Kafkaesque implications of such unlogic! Iran the same country that the last time they initiated any wars of aggression was some 300 years ago!
Meanwhile back at the ranch Dubya has been farming out nuclear war heads to all and sundry in the coalition of the bribed, sort of proliferating nuclear weapons. Which of course is against NPT, but since when international law has impeded US?
The ugly facts are Hydrocarbons are running out, as reflected in the petrol prices, and as you will find much to your chagrin the hike in the Gas bills (UK has the most expensive gas in the world now) during the coming winter, further the situation is going to get worst and not better, and if you think that war is the answer, best get ready for China to dominate the whole bally planet, after all we have ensured that there are no laws, so what is good for the goose is good for gander as they say!
Hi Greg!
These virgins keep cropping up. Do they come in batches of 72?
I hazard a guess that the DPRK stands for the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. If that’s what the inhabitants of the DPRK voted to call it then that’s fine by me!
Many thanks for the correction.
Good on you. Many, many people feel the same.
All sorts of documents have been leaked before with no threat of prosecution to publishers – what on earth is in *this* document to make it so?!
As each day goes by it is even more obvious that we should never have gone anywhere near this war. Many of us knew that at the beginning, but if even those who supported it initially are shaking, it just shows what a big, big mess everything is.
That’s brilliant, Boris. Let’s get that stuff in print.
respect. (no allusion to G. Galloway intended)
Re the virgins. It’s usually quoted as 72. But it’s not apparently in the Koran. And it also allegedly depends on how you translate the word. Turns out it might not even mean virgins at all – more like ‘willing houris’ or something.
Either way it’s all cobblers.
Hi Jack Ramsey,
Subtle, very subtle, I concede virgins ought to have been kept out of it, as you rightly put it, they keep popping up everywhere these days, and not for their virtues either!
However, the facts remain, that in the current climate of hegemony of mercenaries, profiteers, oafs, and eunuchs, evidently reason and logic have been jettisoned into space. Hence the emotional, irrational, and empty sloganeering on display, that is passed on as debate, and intellectual discourse.
Main Stream Media, working on the principles of a take-away menu, have condensed their fare into three main sections;
Fear of the day.
2minutes hate of the day,
Irrelevant tidbits of the day (so that they qualify as some kind of news purveyors).
Which in turn further constrains and limits the extent of any discussion or debate, by shifting the focus of any dialogue onto the barren and almost childish world the said MSM have contrived. Ironically then the masses are blamed for dictating the direction of the MSM. Of course the blame the public game, is an old age trick, including blaming the voters, as that clever Willy Whitelaw observed; ‘people going around the country and spreading voter apathy’.
Although, the facts on the ground are telling of a trend of the lower and lower newspaper sales, as well as falling ratings of the TV news programs, and even lesser numbers listening to radio news, etc. therefore the absurdity of the punters leading the vendors is only a conjecture amidst the brouhaha of the ‘independent’ media doing a fine job.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, DPRK has nuclear weapons, however this fact is not in anyway hindering the neocons from adhering to their Protocols of The Washhouse, by challenging this DPRK announcement. Although the same neocons earlier in time before DPRK left the NPT, and kicked out the IAEA inspectors going onto manufacture these weapons, were accusing DPRK of having ‘intentions’ to build nuclear weapons.
The reality remaining if the earlier Clinton deal were to have been honoured, there would have been one less nuclear weapon club member. Such monumental stupidity facilitating such mishap, going unchallenged(who are the challengers?), it is further compounded with the threats of annihilation from God’s Own Sheriff Dubya to all and sundry including the axis of evil (comic book writers are writing his speeches these days, Evil doers, Smoke’m out). In fact GOSD seems to be single policy bomb the crap out of them sort of chap, who spend lots of his time issuing threats of hell fire and brimstone, to any and all whom do not appreciate his brand of democracy.
Noting that his brand of democracy on offer, itself in fact is a highly defective brand, as reflected in the voter turnouts who find the mysterious selection processes (never mind the Diebold miracle), offering up an almost cookie cutter politician product, who are in fact mere functionaries to carry on the bidding of the same masters, and not the electorate. The absurdity going further, upon any voting person challenging the said selected political figures, whose retort is; ‘Mrs. don’t vote for us in the elections’!
The nature of Dubya brand of democracy on offer, in fact is more akin to dictatorship by consent, as it is manifested by the latest ruling of attorney general in UK who is intending to prosecute anyone publishing the hotly debated transcripts. Although anyone reading the Telegraph would have noticed that the editor of the Mirror had ran the story by No. 10, before going to print, and yet upon the delivery of the first part, subsequently promised parts have been deemed secret!
The contempt our government holds we the people at, is manifest in this cynical exercise of poodle turning if not lion at least rottweiller, by displaying that our five billion pounds spent on Iraqi adventure has bought enough influence to stop bombing of a TV channel’s HQ.
We then find Boris jumping to save the day by declaring his intentions to publish these transcripts (commendable as this effort may be) upon its receipt. Somehow the painful and obvious fact is taking a back seat that is not debated, what kind of an open government do we have? As it is evident even this member of parliament does not know what is going on, evidently keeping us in the dark and throwing manure seems to extend to our elected parliamentarians too.
It is certain that many posters to this blog will recollect the dodgy and dodgier dossiers that were lifted up from an e magazine on the internet. These articles that were the writings of a student, and hailed as the de facto smoking gun with a mushroom cloud on the road to Baghdad. As we now know, the essays of the student, had scant relevance to the nuclear, chemical, and biological posture of Iraq then, however this did not spare the fate of that poor man Gilligan who dared to suggest; the dossiers were sexed up. This revelation cost his job, he was harangued out of his job, along with anyone who stood by him.
The consistent thread running throughout the sordid affair of the premeditated murder in Iraq, has been abound with the stories of ‘dog ate my homework’ as this administration has gone onto blame everything and every one, ranging from the foreign fighters to Iranians helping the insurgents.
First off an insurgency would indicate a legitimate government facing armed dissidents among its respective population. Since the current Iraqi government has more similarities to Vichy government of occupied France, fronting for the occupation forces that are pounding the Iraqis after nearly three years, this term itself is telling of an administration that has been caught as a rabbit in the beam of headlights would be, and a media that has sold out, both of which are cause for alarm. Since in the case of the former, did the planners not realise the certain retaliation of the Iraqis, and in the latter case the MSM without offering any challenges have condoned the ineffective and flawed decision making processes which are promoting even greater propensity to violence in Iraq, by the growing desperation to bomb their way out of the current problems faced in Iraq.
The story in the Independent blowing away the myth of the Iranian involvement in supply of the same ‘Infra-red’ (now that is something real technical including the TV remote) triggers that were actually supplied to IRA by the British armed forces in a botched sting operation, and so far as the bombs are concerned being the handy work of one Charles Monroe in 1888, and carrying his name as Monroe effect to this day after more than a century later. Which somehow is not read by the Sky News experts, and or BBC news producers, who go onto promulgate Iranian involvement based on the anonymous sources. Helping to legitimise ‘Dog ate my homework’.
I was about to point out that the government in Iraq is democratically elected, and that the comparisson with Vichy France is a bit weak. But were there actually any candidates who stood for election in Iraq, proposing that the first act of their new government would be to demand the withdrawal of occupying forces?
Just wondering, we can only vote between the choices we’re given, and if nobody was able to vote for the “allies” to leave, then does that count as us being there by democratic consent?
Hi Greg
Your postings sure make Bleak House, the book, look like Chicken Licken plotwise!
I don’t think the comaprison with Vichy France is useful. JT asks whether there were any candidates demanding the withdrawal of occupation forces. My answer is I don’t know. There were choices between candidates with varying positions as far as I can see and I guess that various were in favour of withdrawal at different times. My ignorance of Vichy is almost perfect (I went there once and couldn’t find a war memorial) so I have no idea how their elections, if any, worked but I suspect that the Jewish Social Democratic Party may have had a hard time.
It seemed to me that the White House were genuinely concerned about the cosntitution vote.
It’s a neat trick to bring in Vichy Greg. USA = Nazis etc. but I don’t think it washes. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Grahib and rumours of Eastern European torture centres do not equal Auschwitz. As I recall, A. H. Itler was inclined to rule the world with a master race and eliminate quite a lot of the others. At its most selfinterestedness, the USA is concerned to stop international terrorism and rogue states threatening it. At its more generous it is genuinely keen to see democracy spread. Perhaps Mac is right and this is naive.
Anyway Greg, much as I enjoyed your postings, I’m still not clear on the election arrangements in DPRK. Also, is it a workers’ state and, if so, what sort?
I’m afraid I’d question their motives to a much greater extent than you do Jack. Bush’s election malpractices, and his consistent employment of corporations to run Iraq speaks of more self-interest than merely stopping terrorism. It seems to me that ‘at their most generous’ they are more interested in spreading capitalism than democracy, or rather that Bush is intent on spreading the influence of his friends’ and family’s companies. The democrats are right to complain about the election results, and I believe we are right to question the USA’s motives in Iraq and everywhere else they’re deployed. I also think we’re right to question who conducted 9/11, since we heard really very little from AQ about it. And Osama still hasn’t been found (I guess the if he was even alive during 9/11, he’s probably dead and burned/buried now). Whether or not these guys are right in their conclusions, surely you can’t think it’s a bad think to investigate?
In answer to your question from about 20 posts back. I think I possibly would rather the present NK and Iranian administrations had nukes. Their record is far better than the states in terms of war (though their human rights record is worse I admit, at least a little bit worse). There are virtually no people I would trust with nuclear weapons, but the USA is DEFINITELY not one of them. The UK borders on it maybe, but basically it just comes down to a few countries like Norway and Luxembourg! Oh well, not much we can do about it now…
Perhaps we are in fact all barking,( mad?) ( up the wrong Bush?). Democracy is supposed , one more time , for those at the back, to be BY the people , OF the people and FOR the people..
In its most simple application, is not a Theocracy, or even Communism, similar enough to that , until it becomes an enforced , and therefore totalitarian regime?
Whar we are pleased to call Democracy is , according, at least to the Treelet, unbridled self interest. “I’m aboard , so haul up the ladder Jack”.
He wants to burden the Iraqis ; the Iranians ; the North Koreans et al, with HIS way of conducting THEIR, wholly internal, affairs,suited ., at least for the time being, to the peculiar circumstances of time and place, and yet he demands that these ” children ” do not have the same toys to play with as he has .
To paraphrase The merchant of Venice:-
Hath not any other person eyes; hands ; organs; senes ; passions? If so , he will resemble you in other ways too.
The point about the Vichy Government was that it collaborated fully with the Nazis , acting as an agent of Der dritten Reich,( even including the rounding up and transport of Jews) , in order to retain at least the semblance of freedom for the southern areas of France, whilst the rest of France had none. I see no comparisons here.
Jack
I don’t agree with you on the USA and war. Vietnam turned out badly and the conduct of the USA was often barbaric. On the other hand there was a menace from the communist states, whosesystems were as evil as that of the Nazis. One of the things that the Anti Nazi League used to quote until recently was that Hitler or one of the other Nazi bigwigs stated that ‘had the opposition (nationally and internationally I think JR) taken us seriously at the beginning they could have stopped us’. The ANL used this as a reason for brekaing up meetings they deemed fascist. Anyway the intent, to try and prevent South Vietnam, albeit a corrupt state, from becoming a totalitarian state, was on balance right. We’re still waitng to hear from Greg on the DPRK but I suspect that whatever they call the southern end is a better place to live than the northern end of the Korean peninsula.
The USA has intervened in Latin America, often no doubt illegally and brutally. Democracy has not necessarily been their aim. This is wrong and inexcusable. By leaving it there I am not forgetting it.
I think the motives of the USA leaderhsip and the individuals themselves are very mixed. Certainly expanding capitalism has something to do with it. However I think there is a utilitarian argument for the growth of democracy to which some are committed. Democracies squabble but are less likely to go to war with each other. On the other hand the capitalist nations of SE Asia which avoided communism show a degree of human rights and democratic practise, admittedly lower than that of Western Europe and USA, but vastly higher than in the communist countries. Capitalism doesn’t imply democracy but capitalist free market ideas are more likely to be found where ideas about how to be ruled are opening up.
I have no objections to any enquiries about anything but unless we are going to fall into complete Cartesian doubt, do we have to not favour some hypotheses over others as worthy of investigation? My sources are not good – the newspapers and the Home Service, but unless I’m the star in the Ramsey Show, then it seems pretty sure that bin Laden existed, that the attacks on the WTC were carried out by Islamacists and not the CIA. If the powers that be have trouble suppressing comments about listener George Bush’s criticisms of a radio station, then isn’t it going to be that much more difficult to fabricate everything that is presented to suggest that 9/11 was the work of Islamacists, probably connected to AQ? I mentioned a guy earlier who earnestly told me that 100’s or 1,000’s of New York Jews didn’t show up to work that day. Surely there would be enough non-Zionists, anti-establishment types amongst that particular section to blow the whistle? (I’m not suggesting that Republicans or other gentiles wouldn’t).
Dear all
Just a personal thing – could we all try to kill of some of these acronyms? WMD, DPRK, MSM, NPT? We know what they mean, but they don’t half make these posts difficult to read.
Surely the simplest solution is to send the memo abroad? I don’t see that, for example, Le Monde’s reporters can be prosecuted for revealing British memos?
They are afraiding of you. And becouse of this they want to put you in a jail. It was same in Czech republic in communistic time. But I fought, that it is different in UK. Do what you want. It is the right thing. I think that it is time for them to afraid. They have to serve us.
Glad to see Boris Johnson admitting the error of his ways re Al Jazeerah, but for goodness sake, he really should read their website and reports. It really is like an Arab BBC; that is, it is pretty middle of the road and very far from being radical. The fact that it prints truthful reports about items that the BBC fears to touch doesn’t make it dangerous-unless of course your view is that any freedoms and truths which threaten the corrupt and despotic rulers of our world are dangerous. I’ve always assumed that Boris is very much a member and supporter of this class and only attacks its excesses and not its privileges.
Hi Jack Target,
Comparisons can be based on any number of pattern equations, ranging from highly intricate to general and ubiquitous. However, the choice of patterns ought to facilitate obtaining the solution state sought. Comparisons between Vichy government, and Iraq can also be based on very narrow and unique characteristics, and or based on governance under occupation by the indigenous vassals who front for the occupying forces, while heavily reliant on the military and security assets of the occupiers, with all entailed thereof. Although, in evidence the patterns chosen by differing posters have come to dominate the debate, at the expense of the so called elections in Iraq, that are all but a sham, since under the international law, there can be no legitimate elections held under occupation.
Further, considering the fine job of the Main Stream Media in reportage of the Iraqi affairs, so far. It is with little surprise to find the results of such a fairytale to have become to be considered as legitimate and legal by some. Disregarded too, have been the mechanics of voter registration (never mind the selection processes for the candidates taking part) , for such elections, that were based on the food ration books. That is the Iraqis were given the stark choice of turn up and get your finger inky, and or forget the food pal! The innocent rational of food ration registration is to be found in the lack of any working institutions in Iraq. As well as the only reliable records being the food ration data, that were the way of life for Iraqis during the long years of sanctions imposed on that country. The same sanctions that were daubed by congressman David Bonior as: ‘infanticide masquerading as politics’.
Hi Jack Ramsey,
So far as the rush for the constitution is concerned, the one hundred orders of Bremer, translated and put into law as the constitution of Iraq, in effect is a charter for privatisation of the whole of Iraq. Among the protection measures of the corporate interests, is the prohibition of the farmers from keeping their own seed stocks, while directing them to certain commercial representations of certain corporates in Iraq, for procurement of any such seeds! Less said about the oil industry, that will cost any Iraqi with earnings of $1200 per capita per annum as much as $7800. Hence, the cost of freedom to Iraqis will be carried well into the future for many generations to come. That effectively puts pay to any notions of spreading democracy, and clarifies the commercial imperatives that were at the basis of the premeditated mass murder in Iraq.
However, for some inconceivable reason, the rampant fascism on the march is not somehow considered awful enough, in comparison to the shenanigans of the Industrialists of the early half of the twentieth century. The following article could prove useful.
Replacing cartelization with globalisation, and ‘belong either to a squad, a regiment or a brigade’ with ‘carry identity cards’, how would this passage read?
‘Germany presents the logical end of the process of cartelization. From 1923 to 1935, cartelization grew in Germany until finally that nation was so organized that everyone had to belong either to a squad, a regiment or a brigade in order to survive. The names given to these squads, regiments or brigades were cartels, trade associations, unions and trusts. Such a distribution system could not adjust its prices. It needed a general with quasi-military authority who could order the workers to work and the mills to produce. Hitler named himself that general. Had it not been Hitler it would have been someone else.’
Fascism then. Fascism now?
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article11155.htm
‘Arbeit Macht Frei’ don’t you think this was no pun, but what today would be classed as spin?
Finally, Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea (markgamon accommodated), a country that has been fighting for its very existence for the duration of the last sixty years, and currently in the cross hairs of the democracy purveyors by night and oil executives by day Messrs Bu$h-Cheney et al. regardless of the standards of their institution have a right to manage their own affairs. These affairs albeit different, and strange to us, however, cannot be swept aside, and replaced by conventions and institutions from without. Considering the massive military expenditure imposed on that country, by the hostile world from outside its borders, the unfortunate nationals of Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea have forgone many of the creature comforts for the sake of retaining their independence. This wish ought to be respected by the world community, although in the current climate brought on by the hegemony of the mercenaries, profiteers, and eunuchs acting as the functionaries of the corporates promoting their brand of democracy in fact ought not to be thought of as the only alternative for governance, and arbitration within human societies in the far flung lands. Hence, the notions of whether the workers, and or elite are in charge is not a measure of their quality of life, but for certain the wealth gap experienced in the consumer world is not an accepted standard in Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
Hi Macarnie,
Evidently Iraqis want Saddam to stand in elections, as well as the latest comments of Allawi who stated Iraq is now a far worst place than when Saddam was in power, noting that he is the same man who shot six blindfolded prisoners just to teach his police how to behave! Is the governance in Iraq as portrayed in the Main Stream Media?
Hi Zdenek Masek,
You are in a unique position to recognise state propaganda when you see it, and your comments with rule of fear, are the voice of experience that has been subject to years of living in fear, based on the imperatives of a totalitarian regime. However, the lack of such sophistication in the western block has made possible the current gains made by the corporate functionaries. Although this gain now is somewhat being checked.
Finally, having enjoyed the hospitality of people in Prague, and spent some memorable times there, keep up the good work, mind don’t let your country to be sold to all and sundry for a pittance!
Hi Greg
The BBC is always brief on these things anyway but maybe I just missed their Election Night Special on the DPRK. Could you remind me who is the party that won and which party is in opposition?
Greg : Which freedom seeking group was it that said that the majority of Iraqis want Maddas to stand? If this support is so apparent, as you infer , why have so few heard of it?
Those backing Saddam ,in any significant way, are the minority Sunnis: most certainly not the Kurds and Shi’ia . Hell hath no fury Etc.
Iraq may very well be more dangerous for the indigenous population at present, but not directly because of the forces of ,( as you term them ), occupation: much more so because of the actions of the insurgents, and even imported suicide bombers .
A Belgian brainwashed convert to Islam was one opf the latest to add to the Iraqi carnage: where does that fit into the jigsaw?
I read today that David Frost, together with some other well known and established broadcasters, is considering joining A Jazeera, for foreidgn consumption.
Anyime hear the same , or similar ?
Macarnie
On the first point look no further than Yahoo:
‘Iraqis have asked the defence team to study the legal conditions to present Saddam Hussein as a candidate for elections, first as an MP then as president,’ Jordan’s Al-Dustour daily quoted former Qatari justice minister Najib al-Nuaimi as saying.
Iraqis want Saddam to run for election
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051130/wl_mideast_afp/iraqsaddamvotelawyer_051130112213
Iraqis were not killing each other before the excellent invasion (cakewalk was the term coined by Messrs Perle, Krystol, et al) of Iraq, the invaders were to be greeted with flower throwing Iraqis, expressing their appreciation for Operation Iraqi Freedom. However, since lies, or is that gross inexactitudes are being exposed as rapidly as they are thought of. Those of good faith who invaded Iraq, have all but ran out of any other excuse under the sun, and now they find the only hook left in blaming sectarianisms as the basis of the mayhem in Iraq! That is despite the available public domain data as in the Channel 5 broadcast of the day after Hitler’s invasion of Britain.
The current wave of killings attributed to Insurgents (a misleading term in an attempt to discount any resistance), and the contrived sectarian strife are in fact follow-up to appointment of John Negroponte as the US ambassador to Iraq. As his well documented, record (conservative estimate of 200,000 deaths in Central America as a result of US intervention) in directing torture, and death squads in Honduras, El Salvador, were the grounds for his deployment to Iraq. The current situation in Iraq should be an indication of the degrees of success in discharge of his duties. Although some would not be surprised at the extent of his success, since the same John Negroponte whom along with Sir Jeremy Greenstock, in United Nations were the duo whom promised no ‘automacity’ in resolution 1444 for war before getting it passed in United Nation Security Council, yet as history stands the Iraq attack went ahead regardless.
Finally, the sectarian tone of the last point ought to be found repugnant by any norms. Alas in the current climate, such remarks somehow go without any challenge, and or penalty, hence the crass sentiments echoed by the sentence, that can only be attributed to the personal position of the author!
Blaming a religion with a vast number of followers, reeks of a particularly virulent chauvinism, belying a desperation in stemming from intellectual failure, and impotence. In fact reflecting an inability to understand that resistance in Iraq is not based on any religious grounds, but a natural reaction of those Iraqis who are acting as any other nationals of any country in repelling the invaders from their land, whom may find active sympathisers, as well non-sympathisers to their cause from around the globe.
Hi Jack Ramsey,
Apparently there should be a cause for worry for fear of obsessive compulsive disorder, concerning the obsession with elections held in Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
Curmudgeon would retort; there can be no valid elections in Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea until that country has been the subject of Operation Korean Freedom and Reunification. Since only in the event of such an invasion could there be a free and fair election held, under the watchful eyes of the soldiers of the coalition of the bribed mark II screaming at the indigenous population; come out with your votes up!
However, that is not in keeping with our style of debate, hence, it falls upon enquiring, why are elections of such importance in Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea?
What could be achieved by holding elections in Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea?
What difference would it make to security, and integrity of Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea?
Finally, why so much insistence on this point?
Greg: What you write is, in all probability ,based on fact, but fact seen from a biased point of view.
I would urge you to read precisely what is said in the source which you provided. The People backing Saddam are his people: Sunni, a minority in Iraq, and the mainstay of the Ba
Greg, some of us do agree with you by the way. I’m not being very vocal, simply leaving it to you! Just didn’t want you to feel like you were on your own 🙂
You’re maybe slightly more hard-line than I am, but you’re right on most counts in my opinion.
Why should Bush complain about a station his buddy owns? Is this a little ploy to give credence to Al Jazeera.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6894936/site/newsweek/
Feb. 1 – Under intense pressure from the Bush administration to sell its controversial Al-Jazeera network, the nation of Qatar stunned the television industry today by agreeing to sell the broadcast company to Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News Channel.
Well done JT! 600 is a comfy number
Hi Greg
Well if that’s how they like it. I guess it has its points. No chads, no politicians (just rulers), no Conservative Party leadership competitions, no dodgey postal votes, no need for John Humphreys.
If we really are going for 1001 or just 666 maybe some comments on the advantages of not having elections could be our next project. Let’s get to the next milestone before the raison d’etre of this thread expires!
Ooops! Wrong thread!
Jack R: A slightly tongue in cheek reacrtion to your request for more on elections:-
In China, for example , he advantages of not having many free elections ,is the positive deceleration of their still escalating birthrate.
It might appear to some observers, here in the UK, that a similar phenomenon has slowly , but inevitably, becoming evident, with , however negative results.
The lack of regular elections, in itself, is not apparently significant, but then , if the results therefrom are not acted upon and properly applied ,the present state of affairs, if extrapolated , will show an even greater decline in the birthrate , and thus , indirectly impinge on the Government’s present pensions policy.
It is 30 years since the first so called “test tube” baby’s conception: if there are not more profitably used elections, will we , as a nation , come to rely on the test tube for our future pensions?
Mac
I think research coming though from Neasden University College shows that the fall in efficacy of recent elections is pretty much in line with the rise in binge drinking. Brewers’ profits rise although this is compensated for by other aspects of brewers.
Jack : although I have not read the learned paper as yet, I can only defer to their superior overall knowledge of the subject.
If in bars one doth loiter,
One shall get Brewers’ goitre
Hi Jack Ramsey
Reliant on a hitherto unknown quantum leap of unknown dimensions, evidently the modalities of current arrangements of dictatorship by consent, in our corner of the globe, have been swept aside and replaced by a system imported from Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
Notwithstanding the proposition; flapping wings of a butterfly in the Korean peninsula may contribute to instantiation of gale force storms at the North Sea, however, solitary butterfly flapping its wings can hardly be a credible cause for the storm under way in the North Sea.
Which gives rise to anxiety that our system of governance being in danger of catching some kind of electoral virus from those far eastern lands, akin to the bird flu too!
It is difficult to see how can the modalities of governance and or arbitration in Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, affect our system of governance and arbitration?
However, the tragedy lies in our diverted attentions, that are directed at other corners of the globe, while our own systems of governance, and arbitration are under the constant assaults of the revisionist neocons, and their cohorts, in fact the author of a book titled ‘why do we need the neocons?’ was given centre stage on Newsnight, along with yet another acolyte of neocons, namely Mr. Gaffney, whom went onto discussing the merits of why do we need a hole in the head, without much irony!
Finally, Democracy begins at home, and it ought to be vigilantly looked after.
Macarnie
Your post, lays out the composition of the Iraqi society, representing certain facets of the situation that we are faced with in Iraq. However, considering the sectarian differences within the contest of the conflict, it is without a doubt a tertiary issue. Since as you would agree, the different sects of Islam regardless of their flavours, all remain faithful to Quran. Which negates the fight for religious ascendancy within the context you have forwarded.
Also, it should be noted that with in the context of any democracy, the majority rule does not somehow constitute disregarding the minorities rights and aspirations. Any system of democratic governance, without taking account of the rights of the minorities, in effect is a system of mob rule.
So far as Saddam is concerned, as found in the available public domain data, he was a vassal put in place by CIA (Central Intelligence Agency), therefore all considerations about his heinous behaviour, ought to also include the high tolerance of such behaviour by those proclaiming high moral grounds, while getting down to some serious money making, as ever in the killing industries. Finally, upon Saddam living out his usefulness then there came the Operation Iraqi Freedom designed for stopping smoking guns, mushroom clouds, etc. eventually settling for his removal and liberation of the oppressed masses in Iraq. This is in the face of curiously available data, telling Saddam was ready to quit, and go into exile, on the conditions that he was immune from prosecution, and Iraqis were to hold any elections within six months of his departure. This offer of Saddam for some anomalous reason, was not entertained, evidently due to the window of opportunity for killing opening, and no matter what bombs had to be away. Less said about the other Saddam offer which has been sent down the memory hole; Saddam inviting Dubya and his vice president for torture (as coined by admiral Stansfield Turner) to a duel, which evidently was laughed at by all concerned.
As Winston Smith (1984, Orwell) found out, those who control the present, control the past, and those who control the past, control the future. Hence, upon setting the high bar of villainous conduct (no glorification of criminality intended) with the respective foci on the little Austrian painter with a funny moustache, and or other repugnant characters (seed stock of the current troop of hairless apes) from the years, and aeons passed. The danger arises that other hairless apes of the same persuasion slide under the bar unnoticed.
As we debate there are some 500,000 yes that is one half of a million souls, whom are incarcerated around the globe (as reflected in Washington Post), under the suspicion of terrorism, and or that other trumped up charge of enemy combatant. The modality of these souls� incarceration, as well as the extreme interrogation techniques (now that is spinning torture to be sort of a little bit torture, with itsy-bitsy drilling of the joints, and or eyes gouged out of sockets, and or slivers of flesh torn off) they are subject to.
Hence, Iraq war not only is brutalising Iraqis, but along with them it is also brutalising the rest of the world too. Therefore, any bias introduced ought to be on the side of humanity, and promotion of human values, while opposing torture, needless killings, and destruction of vast number of lives, in aid of corporates making a quick buck out of single bid contracts awarded.
2,127 U.S. and 98 casualties in Iraq as of 12.04.05 and untold thousands of injured.
Enough — the original intent of this action was to topple Saddam. That “goal” was achieved 2 years ago.
The scheme never included nation building or building sewers or building roads or fighting unnamed bogeymen.
Call it what you will; cut and run, abandonment, failure — take your pick, but the American people no longer are willing to follow batshit crazy Bush and his lap dog, Poodle Blair, into the flames of hell any longer.
.
If , as Greg seems to advocate ,tribal or sectarian differences are but a tertiary consideration, what are the two preceding consideration?
The Sunnites’ orthodoxy is marked by an emphasis on the views and customs of the majority of the community, as distinguished from the views of peripheral groups. The institution of consensus evolved by the Sunnites allowed them to incorporate various customs and usages that arose through ordinary historical development but that, nevertheless, had no roots in the Qur
Hi Greg!
I’m having a day off for good behaviour.
Take care.
Macarnie,
To clarify the evident confusion that has arisen (Tertiary), let us recap on the earlier forwarded propositions. Iraqi nationals, in line with any of their counter parts from around the globe, aspire to rid their lands from any uninvited guest i.e. the invaders. Further, regardless of the current arrangements for governance, and arbitration in Iraq, set up by the occupiers through the use of their local vassals/puppets/sepoy/etc. Majority of Iraqis (more than 80%) wish to see the back of the foreign soldiers, including the imported civilian contractors (spin for mercenaries, who are not bound by any rules or conventions, as evident in the emergent trophy videos aired on the ITV, and elsewhere).
The ludicrous notion of handing back sovereignty to Iraqis, is not washed away, either by the international laws, or by the Iraqis. Sovereignty is not transferable, it was not taken away by the occupiers, only to be handed back. In clarification of this point, recourse to analogy is called for; any burglar stealing another’s goods, cannot steal the title of the stolen goods, too. Since the title of the goods stolen shall remain by the one, whose property has been stolen. Therefore secretary of state for US cannot hand back sovereignty to Iraqis, regardless of the great sounding bite for the benefit of the TV. Iraqi sovereignty was not taken away from Iraqis to begin with, only to be handed back, by such magnanimity on display!
Therefore, regardless of sugar coated facts, including those from encyclopaedias, Iraqis’ imperatives are to end the occupation of their land, then start rebuilding their institution and put in place some sort of arbitration, and governance. Hence, the current torrent of sectarian wars, and religious ascendancy do not change the facts on the ground. This is reflected even in Telegraph articles putting pay to the foreign fighters myth.
Further Sunnite, and or other foreign expressions involved, evidently have lead to the manifest confusion in the semantics they carry, reflected in the bracketed conclusions, which perhaps ought to be clarified:
Sunnite: a member of the branch of Islam that accepts the first four caliphs as rightful successors to Muhammad
http://wordnet.princeton.edu
Note it is the same religion!
Hopefully, these confusions allayed, the debate, can move away from the sermons in the last part, along with the notions of advantageous facts etc.
Since this debate ought not to be considered a game play, and or pastime for those with little to do, and bored with playing dungeons and dragons, and seeking an alternative. The purpose of this debate ought to be investigation with a view to gleaning a better understanding, in the face of woeful inadequacy of the Main Stream Media discharging their duty. Also highlighting the plight of those disposed from what little they had, in Iraq including, suffering further through the unnecessary deaths of their families, friends, neighbours, as well as the needless deaths of youth of the coalition of the bribed, whom could have contributed to their respective societies, and were cut in their prime for the reasons of course chosen by greedy little old hairless apes, who may have difficulties holding onto their water (prostate is all but a rigid addendum), yet surprisingly find it easy to unleash death and destruction on a biblical scale for the sake of their own twisted imperatives.
Ideal world, real world, are both in the minds of those whom are divorced from the actualities, and living alongside with Barbie Doll, and her entourage. World is what we make of it, and as this debate is going on, it is being made, hence the repugnant misanthropy on display ought to be directed at its rightful origin, the hairless apes, bent on spreading their influence through recourse to the only tools they know how to use; a big stick, in fact the bigger the stick the better the stick.
Greg: The term modalities of governance: what does that imply?
Firstly : it is generally agreed that the Iraqis in general would prefer the Allied forces to leave.
The problem which rears its head in this context is, the lawful majority which voted for a specific set of rules for the country, is being forcefully and brutally resisted by the minority, which cannot accept their minority status.
You repeatedly make use of the term
Macarnie,
Pushing the Chewbacca Defence envelope a bit too far are you not?
First pedantry, then rhetorical pedantry, finally incoherent drivel, concluding majority of Iraqis want foreign soldiers on Iraqi soil! While hanging on to the fairytale of ‘free elections in Iraq’, discounting that under international laws of occupation there cannot be any imposition of so called elections, by the occupiers in the lands that are occupied!
Pray tell what new insight have you so far contributed, other than regurgitating the orthodoxies that are peddled by the disinformation merchants deployed by the troop of the hairless apes wielding their sticks?
Address the points forwarded, or desist from trolling the Sun, encyclopaedia, etc. in aid of (by now all too apparent to all and sundry) Chewbacca Defence!
A more up to date encyclopaedia for you:
Chewbacca Defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense
Greg: Now now!
People who live in glass houses Etc.
The powers that be must deal with what IS , and not with what might have been. The illegal interference in the internal affairs of Iraq remains a fact , and the insurgency problem remains a fact.
You have a certain mind set regarding the situation , no-one denies tou your right to your opinions. Please have the courtesy of allowing others that luxury.
If you are not open to criticism , perhaps this is the wrong forum. A debate is merely an exchange if ideas, is it not?
Your no doubt well meaning , oft repeated,apparently unending argument as to how you see the problem , is not altering the status quo in Iraq,( as indeed , neither are the counter arguments).
You might contribute to the old adage ,” There are none so blind who will not see, nor none so deaf who will not hear”. I do!
Macarnie
Terms of reference:
Governance:
The right to participate in and make decisions with regard to a nation’s affairs, which is critical in democratising the state and society. Characteristics of good governance include: political accountability, freedom of association and participation, a sound judicial system, bureaucratic accountability, freedom of information and expression as well as capacity building. All these aspects are essential to sustainable development.
http://www.polity.org.za/html/govdocs/white_papers/social97gloss.html
The management of a system, usually political or organisational, involving mutual adjustment, negotiation and accommodation between the parties involved rather than direct control.
http://www.booksites.net/download/chadwickbeech/Glossary.htm
The exercise of political, economic, and administrative authority in the management of a country’s affairs at all levels. It is a neutral concept comprising the complex mechanisms, processes, relationships and institutions through which citizens and groups articulate their interests, exercise their rights and obligations and mediate their differences. (UNDP definition)
http://www.emro.who.int/mei/mep/Healthsystemsglossary.htm
N.B. Governance deals with the processes and systems by which an organization or society operate. Frequently a government is established to administer these processes and systems.
Modality:
Semiotics referring to the status of reality ascribed to, and or claimed by a sign (i.e. by Governance)
Debate:
A process of inquiry and advocacy seeking reasoned judgement on a proposition. Debate allows for two or more sides advocating their positions on given issues under some set of rules.
http://www.tmsdebate.org/main/forensics/glossary.htm
Now, clarification of terms over with.
Manifestly Chewbacca Defence, ought not to be passed on, as debate. Further, evident acceptance of the unlawful invasion and continuing occupation of Iraq on mere ‘as is’ basis, somehow cannot by any flight of fancy, make ‘as is’ lawful.
Therefore, in dealing with ‘as is’ one obvious course of action is to legislate, passing onto statute, measures that legalise; unprovoked wars, indefinite occupation, mass murder, smash and grab, profiteering, torture, extra judicial detentions, and random shooting of civilians. This course of action solving all of the problems facing ‘as is’, however gives rise to a tinsywinsy trouble of dealing with other powerful nation entities, who may decide to follow suit, and proceed to liberate any and all resource they fancy from anywhere around the globe.
On the other hand, if the illegality of ‘as is’ is taken account of. Then there can be no extenuating circumstances that can make legal the unlawful ‘as is’. That is to say the only sane course of conduct is to roll back the invading forces, and cease and desist from the occupation of Iraq at once. However, there arises problems of recompensing Iraqis, and the nationals of the coalition of the bribed, that is, compensating those directly or indirectly affected by the misapplication of force in Iraq.
Hence, the limbo that we find ourselves in, and enter the spin masters (disinformation merchants) with their natural propensity to unconscious drivel, that have brought about the current state of blaming anyone standing, or for that matter dropping dead, except the culprits.
Nevertheless, upon entertaining this latter course of action, we have absolved those culprits from any and all responsibility, leaving open the probability of the repetition of the Iraq scenario, elsewhere, resulting in mounting cost of wars at home, and those countries falling victim to the aggression arising from ill thought of and ill intentioned policies of these so called war leaders.
Therefore, the only available alternative would remain in immediate withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, and then start of legal proceedings to establish the extent of the responsibility of those whom have patently failed in their duty of care, and discharge of their duties that they have been so handsomely remunerated for.
Now as per post: your ears are open, and your eyes operate within the anticipated parameters of their design, then perhaps you could address the points forwarded without attributing blame onto the villainous homeworkvore (eats homework only) dog!
Greg : I will decline your kind invitation to continue this ” debate”, since I find life is too short to plough through the masses of extraneous verbiage with which you express your views.
Suffice to say , I disagree with your standpoint, however expressed , but willl defend your right to hold them.( Not very original ,I agree, but well meant , nevertheless).
I broke this down in a poem called ‘Control the room’.A play on the title ‘Control Room’.If anyone would like a copy I will e-mail it to them.I’m England’s first documented rapper (Black Echoes magazine 1980) and a slam poetry champion in LA and all my raps are political now.I’m on the Axis of Justice album ripping the President.Axisofjustice.org)
Control the Room
-Bush said that the alleged plot to bomb al Jazeera’s international headquarters was an “outlandish” accusation/
We’ll never know the truth until the Official Secrets Act is defied by a British official or a news organization/
We will know/
when someone has the guts to publish the 5 page memo/
To cover their own actions which were reprehensible/
Rumsfeld said that what al Jazeera was doing was vicious, inaccurate and inexcusable/
Rumsfeld never made a reference to what the U.S. had done/
Bombing al Jazeera’s offices in Afghanistan in 2001/
‘Vicious’ and ‘inexcusable’ was our government/
when U.S. forces killed Tareq Agoub, al Jazeera’s Baghdad correspondent/
So that’s a snippet.It’s about 3 minutes long and I’ll gladly type and send the whole thing to anyone that tells me they dug it.Peace