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	<title>Comments on: Enlarging on the response to the London bombs</title>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5188</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5188</guid>
		<description>In the light of the latest piece of videotape evidence; this time from beyond the grave; confirming, beyond doubt, that we have / had, in our midst, some (hopefully a miniscule minority) radical Muslims who are prepared to commit mayhem, involving innocent civilian bystanders,of whatever creedor colour,
in the mistaken belief that the average Brit is a monster, intent on destroying Islam.

This morning, on radio 4, John Humphries interviewed a leading Muslim Cleric, whose insistence that there is, and was, no proof that Muslims were involved in the 7 / 7 bombings was, to say the least, bizarre.

Is this the state of affairs we wish to be in the ascendancy, when all sections of Society are in danger, to a greater or lesser degree, by as yet unknown atrocities?

It must be approaching the time for a further definitive declaration of solidarity from the spokesmen of the Muslim community, (the majority of whom are against terrorism, in any and all its forms), denouncing all those participating in terrorism, of whatever beliefs and political associations.

This country, foremost in Europe, has a liberal attitude towards minorities, but this tolerant attitude could change if controversial

Preachers are allowed to rubbish incontrovertible evidence. This morning&#039;s example cited possible image manipulation, in order to prove Muslim involvement, as an explanation for the above mentioned tape.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the light of the latest piece of videotape evidence; this time from beyond the grave; confirming, beyond doubt, that we have / had, in our midst, some (hopefully a miniscule minority) radical Muslims who are prepared to commit mayhem, involving innocent civilian bystanders,of whatever creedor colour,<br />
in the mistaken belief that the average Brit is a monster, intent on destroying Islam.</p>
<p>This morning, on radio 4, John Humphries interviewed a leading Muslim Cleric, whose insistence that there is, and was, no proof that Muslims were involved in the 7 / 7 bombings was, to say the least, bizarre.</p>
<p>Is this the state of affairs we wish to be in the ascendancy, when all sections of Society are in danger, to a greater or lesser degree, by as yet unknown atrocities?</p>
<p>It must be approaching the time for a further definitive declaration of solidarity from the spokesmen of the Muslim community, (the majority of whom are against terrorism, in any and all its forms), denouncing all those participating in terrorism, of whatever beliefs and political associations.</p>
<p>This country, foremost in Europe, has a liberal attitude towards minorities, but this tolerant attitude could change if controversial</p>
<p>Preachers are allowed to rubbish incontrovertible evidence. This morning&#8217;s example cited possible image manipulation, in order to prove Muslim involvement, as an explanation for the above mentioned tape.</p>
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		<title>By: david h</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5187</link>
		<dc:creator>david h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5187</guid>
		<description>Well Sarah, your post interested me, you may have many fooled, you certainly spun a pretty picture but lets look at what you said and what Islamic literature actually says....

1 &quot;Your claim that the Prophet allowed slaves to be used as sex workers is misinterpreted. Women captured in the pre-Islamic era were subjected to inhumane treatment; after Islam these women were allowed to be kept and taken care of and treated in a respectable manner as one would treat a wife. Now, the human intelligence may think, that this is wronged. but God ordained this because leaving women to roam free only encourages prostitution and this &#039;sex trade&#039; is abhorent to Islam.&quot;


I will respond to that comment with a hadith:-
sahih Muslim
1)Book 008, Number 3371:
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa&#039;id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa&#039;id, did you hear Allah&#039;s Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-&#039;azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah&#039;s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi&#039;l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing &#039;azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah&#039;s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah&#039;s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.



your prophet</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Sarah, your post interested me, you may have many fooled, you certainly spun a pretty picture but lets look at what you said and what Islamic literature actually says&#8230;.</p>
<p>1 &#8220;Your claim that the Prophet allowed slaves to be used as sex workers is misinterpreted. Women captured in the pre-Islamic era were subjected to inhumane treatment; after Islam these women were allowed to be kept and taken care of and treated in a respectable manner as one would treat a wife. Now, the human intelligence may think, that this is wronged. but God ordained this because leaving women to roam free only encourages prostitution and this &#8217;sex trade&#8217; is abhorent to Islam.&#8221;</p>
<p>I will respond to that comment with a hadith:-<br />
sahih Muslim<br />
1)Book 008, Number 3371:<br />
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa&#8217;id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa&#8217;id, did you hear Allah&#8217;s Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-&#8217;azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah&#8217;s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi&#8217;l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing &#8216;azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah&#8217;s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah&#8217;s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.</p>
<p>your prophet</p>
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		<title>By: dave h</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5186</link>
		<dc:creator>dave h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5186</guid>
		<description>well done boris . its about time some body stood up against these murdering terroists. your doing a fine job. keep up the good work..
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well done boris . its about time some body stood up against these murdering terroists. your doing a fine job. keep up the good work..</p>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5185</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5185</guid>
		<description>According to a Channel 4 report,and various other sources; relatives of the Brazilian man; Jean C De Menezes; shot dead by anti-terror police on a London Tube train ,want the perpetators to be charged with murder ...

The lawyer for the de Menezes family,Harriet Wistrich, said they were distressed at newly publicicized revelations, calling them &#039;shocking and terrifying&#039; and adding that it raises serious questions about the  shoot-to-kill policy of the Metropolitan Police; and  has called for a public inquiry into the death of the electrician.

The Met&#039;s Police Commisioner, Sir Ian Blair , made an explanatory statement at the time, and this could cause him considerable embarrassment, since subsequent reports are at odds with it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to a Channel 4 report,and various other sources; relatives of the Brazilian man; Jean C De Menezes; shot dead by anti-terror police on a London Tube train ,want the perpetators to be charged with murder &#8230;</p>
<p>The lawyer for the de Menezes family,Harriet Wistrich, said they were distressed at newly publicicized revelations, calling them &#8217;shocking and terrifying&#8217; and adding that it raises serious questions about the  shoot-to-kill policy of the Metropolitan Police; and  has called for a public inquiry into the death of the electrician.</p>
<p>The Met&#8217;s Police Commisioner, Sir Ian Blair , made an explanatory statement at the time, and this could cause him considerable embarrassment, since subsequent reports are at odds with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5184</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5184</guid>
		<description>I notice that a lot of defence of using the Koran as your guide to life depends on you being pretty sophisticated in interpretation, as well as knowing which interpretation suits which day of the week.

Anyway as a miserable (non-fundamenatist) atheist I&#039;m not so much interested as being told what to think and do as learning how to think and working out what to do. My non-fundamentalist friends of a variety of religions seem to have the same attitude. As my ignorance of other religions is overwhelming, please forgive me for noting that most of the 10 commandments offer a reasonably coherent set of rules for a framework in which the free will that the Christian God gives can be used by responsible people. The Old Testament minute sayings and doings of the prophet Donald in the ancient Middle East seem less useful somehow.

Come on guys of all religions (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Marxism, Fascism, the BBC is always right, etc. etc.) Think a bit - you have nothing to lose but your fundamentals!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice that a lot of defence of using the Koran as your guide to life depends on you being pretty sophisticated in interpretation, as well as knowing which interpretation suits which day of the week.</p>
<p>Anyway as a miserable (non-fundamenatist) atheist I&#8217;m not so much interested as being told what to think and do as learning how to think and working out what to do. My non-fundamentalist friends of a variety of religions seem to have the same attitude. As my ignorance of other religions is overwhelming, please forgive me for noting that most of the 10 commandments offer a reasonably coherent set of rules for a framework in which the free will that the Christian God gives can be used by responsible people. The Old Testament minute sayings and doings of the prophet Donald in the ancient Middle East seem less useful somehow.</p>
<p>Come on guys of all religions (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Marxism, Fascism, the BBC is always right, etc. etc.) Think a bit &#8211; you have nothing to lose but your fundamentals!</p>
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		<title>By: field</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5183</link>
		<dc:creator>field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5183</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t have a chance before to back up my recollection with a quote to show that Sarah was misleading people here with her paraphrase.

The quote is set out below.  It will be seen firstly that the &quot;saving one life&quot; injunction relates to the &quot;children of Israel and is not specifically directed to Muslims. Be that as it may it is the following verse which prescribes punishments in relation to those who create &quot;mischief in the land&quot; that are the eye openers. It&#039;s crucifixion, limb amputation and death.

Even &quot;moderate Muslims&quot; believe that the democracies are engaged in an illegitimate war in Iraq which is part of teh land of the Muslims. Even if it is held that 5.33 refers only to persons living in the land of Muslims, it is clear such punishments would on that reading apply to the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi government.

Sarah has tried, like all Muslim apologists, to pull the wool over people&#039;s eyes. I&#039;m sure most people are sensible enough to see what the message of the Koran is from this quote.

HERE IS THE QUOTE FROM CHAPTER 5 OF THE KORAN

&quot;For this reason did We prescribed to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be [killed] or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t have a chance before to back up my recollection with a quote to show that Sarah was misleading people here with her paraphrase.</p>
<p>The quote is set out below.  It will be seen firstly that the &#8220;saving one life&#8221; injunction relates to the &#8220;children of Israel and is not specifically directed to Muslims. Be that as it may it is the following verse which prescribes punishments in relation to those who create &#8220;mischief in the land&#8221; that are the eye openers. It&#8217;s crucifixion, limb amputation and death.</p>
<p>Even &#8220;moderate Muslims&#8221; believe that the democracies are engaged in an illegitimate war in Iraq which is part of teh land of the Muslims. Even if it is held that 5.33 refers only to persons living in the land of Muslims, it is clear such punishments would on that reading apply to the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi government.</p>
<p>Sarah has tried, like all Muslim apologists, to pull the wool over people&#8217;s eyes. I&#8217;m sure most people are sensible enough to see what the message of the Koran is from this quote.</p>
<p>HERE IS THE QUOTE FROM CHAPTER 5 OF THE KORAN</p>
<p>&#8220;For this reason did We prescribed to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.<br />
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be [killed] or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5182</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5182</guid>
		<description>Monotheism, per se, is a non paganistic trait. Dogmatism is a non pagan trait. I suspect that the answer to your question Jack, is simply to belong to a recognised religion, and practise it.
Normally on this , or related subjects , I am a fence sitter: the personification of the three monkeys, or perhaps the Yorkshire guy who says :-

&#039;ear all see all, say nowt

Ate all , sup all, pay nowt;

an&#039; if ever tha&#039; does owt fer nowt,

allus do it fer thisen.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monotheism, per se, is a non paganistic trait. Dogmatism is a non pagan trait. I suspect that the answer to your question Jack, is simply to belong to a recognised religion, and practise it.<br />
Normally on this , or related subjects , I am a fence sitter: the personification of the three monkeys, or perhaps the Yorkshire guy who says :-</p>
<p>&#8216;ear all see all, say nowt</p>
<p>Ate all , sup all, pay nowt;</p>
<p>an&#8217; if ever tha&#8217; does owt fer nowt,</p>
<p>allus do it fer thisen.</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-5182" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5182', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-5182-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-5182" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5182', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-5182-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5181</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5181</guid>
		<description>Thanks Macarnie. I suspect I asked the wrong question. What is it to be a non-Pagan then?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Macarnie. I suspect I asked the wrong question. What is it to be a non-Pagan then?</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-5181" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5181', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-5181-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-5181" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5181', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-5181-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5180</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5180</guid>
		<description>Taken from the web site of Pagans:-

Pagans may be trained in particular traditions or they may follow their own inspiration. Paganism is not dogmatic. Pagans pursue their own vision of the Divine as a direct and personal experience.

Some authors see the emergence of Paganism in the twentieth century as a revival of an older Pagan religion and describe all the above traditions as Neo-Pagan. Pagans are not necessarily recognized, due to the diversity of those claiming to be of a Pagan disposition: Wiccanism and Druidism are only two of the so-called, &quot; isms&quot;, recognized as Pagans.

Historically, pagans built Stonehenge, and other great Henges.

My paternal Grandfather was a follower of Druidism , in fact, highly placed in Druidical circles in the last century.. He believed , if I am not falsely informed , in the prescience of Nature,in its manifold magnificence, and who will prove that his beliefs were wrong?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taken from the web site of Pagans:-</p>
<p>Pagans may be trained in particular traditions or they may follow their own inspiration. Paganism is not dogmatic. Pagans pursue their own vision of the Divine as a direct and personal experience.</p>
<p>Some authors see the emergence of Paganism in the twentieth century as a revival of an older Pagan religion and describe all the above traditions as Neo-Pagan. Pagans are not necessarily recognized, due to the diversity of those claiming to be of a Pagan disposition: Wiccanism and Druidism are only two of the so-called, &#8221; isms&#8221;, recognized as Pagans.</p>
<p>Historically, pagans built Stonehenge, and other great Henges.</p>
<p>My paternal Grandfather was a follower of Druidism , in fact, highly placed in Druidical circles in the last century.. He believed , if I am not falsely informed , in the prescience of Nature,in its manifold magnificence, and who will prove that his beliefs were wrong?</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-5180" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5180', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-5180-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-5180" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5180', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-5180-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/15/enlarging-on-the-response-to-the-london-bombs/comment-page-3/#comment-5179</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 10:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=186#comment-5179</guid>
		<description>Browsing this and associated blogs I come across a number of proud claims to be &quot;a Pagan&quot;. Often this is alongside a denounciation of (usually) Christians as being wicked and/or silly. Before I say any more could any of you Pagans explain (briefly) what a Pagan believes in, possibly with some references to Great Pagans in history?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Browsing this and associated blogs I come across a number of proud claims to be &#8220;a Pagan&#8221;. Often this is alongside a denounciation of (usually) Christians as being wicked and/or silly. Before I say any more could any of you Pagans explain (briefly) what a Pagan believes in, possibly with some references to Great Pagans in history?</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-5179" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5179', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-5179-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-5179" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('5179', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-5179-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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