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	<title>Comments on: Comment on the recent tragedy in London</title>
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		<title>By: Melissa</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4997</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Simon - I get your thinking a little clearer now ~ it takes a little time ~ sounds a good ideal to follow on from the Scandinavian example.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon &#8211; I get your thinking a little clearer now ~ it takes a little time ~ sounds a good ideal to follow on from the Scandinavian example.</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-4997" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4997', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-4997-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-4997" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4997', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-4997-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Simon Holledge at The Skakagrall</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4996</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holledge at The Skakagrall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=184#comment-4996</guid>
		<description>Macarnie: &quot; . . .some of the things which make me a Brit. How about you?&quot;

Politically, I am (as you know) a member of the SNP. I would like to see the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish as a family of nations living in harmony and equality (rather as the Nordic countries do).

The Britishness that you describe seems to be (subliminally at least) about supporting the monarchy, to which I am rather indifferent.

I am British when I am with Americans, Chinese, Japanese etc - because they define me that way. Personally I feel akin to &quot;Rick&#039; in the film Casablanca when he is asked &quot;what is your nationality?&quot; by the Nazi villain and replies &quot;I&#039;m a drunkard.&quot; (Perhaps I should say &quot;I&#039;m a blogger&quot;?) I consider myself a European.

Of course I&#039;m affected by patriotic thrills just like anyone else - comprehensively in my case - I am inspired by Burns, by the singing of the Marseillaise (e.g. in films like Renoir&#039;s La Grand Illusion). I will never forget appearing in the (Tarkovsky production) coronation scene of Boris Godunov swinging a halberd to catch the light, as the bells of the Kremlin tolled and the people sang &quot;Slava! Slava!&quot; (Glory! Glory!) - unbelievable - and there must be lots of other examples.

All the major countries have their good, and bad, points. I am or have been attracted to aspects of life in Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Russia, China, Japan, America and others. Fortunately I have never been in the situation where I was confined to one culture. It would be miserable.

Imagine being condemned to British food, British drink, literature, TV, films, music, holiday resorts etc etc. horror, horror, horror . . .I suppose that is what prison must be like.

Having said all that I must add that the English language has been of great importance in my life.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Macarnie: &#8221; . . .some of the things which make me a Brit. How about you?&#8221;</p>
<p>Politically, I am (as you know) a member of the SNP. I would like to see the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish as a family of nations living in harmony and equality (rather as the Nordic countries do).</p>
<p>The Britishness that you describe seems to be (subliminally at least) about supporting the monarchy, to which I am rather indifferent.</p>
<p>I am British when I am with Americans, Chinese, Japanese etc &#8211; because they define me that way. Personally I feel akin to &#8220;Rick&#8217; in the film Casablanca when he is asked &#8220;what is your nationality?&#8221; by the Nazi villain and replies &#8220;I&#8217;m a drunkard.&#8221; (Perhaps I should say &#8220;I&#8217;m a blogger&#8221;?) I consider myself a European.</p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;m affected by patriotic thrills just like anyone else &#8211; comprehensively in my case &#8211; I am inspired by Burns, by the singing of the Marseillaise (e.g. in films like Renoir&#8217;s La Grand Illusion). I will never forget appearing in the (Tarkovsky production) coronation scene of Boris Godunov swinging a halberd to catch the light, as the bells of the Kremlin tolled and the people sang &#8220;Slava! Slava!&#8221; (Glory! Glory!) &#8211; unbelievable &#8211; and there must be lots of other examples.</p>
<p>All the major countries have their good, and bad, points. I am or have been attracted to aspects of life in Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Russia, China, Japan, America and others. Fortunately I have never been in the situation where I was confined to one culture. It would be miserable.</p>
<p>Imagine being condemned to British food, British drink, literature, TV, films, music, holiday resorts etc etc. horror, horror, horror . . .I suppose that is what prison must be like.</p>
<p>Having said all that I must add that the English language has been of great importance in my life.</p>
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		<title>By: Melissa</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4995</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Macarnie - You write beautifully and I feel swollen with British pride.

Simon - I agree on the church and state point you made - another whose elegant analysis is admirable.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Macarnie &#8211; You write beautifully and I feel swollen with British pride.</p>
<p>Simon &#8211; I agree on the church and state point you made &#8211; another whose elegant analysis is admirable.</p>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4994</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I may be posting somethimg here which , strictly speaking, belongs in another thread, but since I&#039;m here now :- Simon, you recently asked what others thought was their idea the state of being &quot;British&quot; .  Elsewhere I have made noises on this subject, but , faced with a direct question , I , unlike an obedient party politician of almost any grade in any party, I will endeavour to give an openly honest answer.
--------------------------------------------------As a human being, I am an amalgam the various additions, multiplications and divisions, of that(those) part(s) of the human gene pool which was(were) involved in producing me. This gene pool; if analysed and categorized, would, no doubt, show that I am made up of the characteristics of  widely mixed ancestry. Up to now I have merely fuzzily described any of hundreds of millions of members of the human race, but not yet;exclusively; a Briton.

Although the aboriginal population were the true British, they appear to have disappeared as a separate entity.  I understand that little is known of them, apart from some archaeological discoveries, which apparently go as far back as the 8th Millennium BC, with traces of hunter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be posting somethimg here which , strictly speaking, belongs in another thread, but since I&#8217;m here now :- Simon, you recently asked what others thought was their idea the state of being &#8220;British&#8221; .  Elsewhere I have made noises on this subject, but , faced with a direct question , I , unlike an obedient party politician of almost any grade in any party, I will endeavour to give an openly honest answer.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;As a human being, I am an amalgam the various additions, multiplications and divisions, of that(those) part(s) of the human gene pool which was(were) involved in producing me. This gene pool; if analysed and categorized, would, no doubt, show that I am made up of the characteristics of  widely mixed ancestry. Up to now I have merely fuzzily described any of hundreds of millions of members of the human race, but not yet;exclusively; a Briton.</p>
<p>Although the aboriginal population were the true British, they appear to have disappeared as a separate entity.  I understand that little is known of them, apart from some archaeological discoveries, which apparently go as far back as the 8th Millennium BC, with traces of hunter</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-4994" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4994', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-4994-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-4994" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4994', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-4994-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4993</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was of the opinion , until recently , that normal paragraphing was sufficient. I learn by the day Simon.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was of the opinion , until recently , that normal paragraphing was sufficient. I learn by the day Simon.</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-4993" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4993', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-4993-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-4993" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4993', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-4993-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Simon Holledge at The Skakagrall</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4992</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holledge at The Skakagrall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Not at all. I though your paragraphing was terrific!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not at all. I though your paragraphing was terrific!</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-4992" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4992', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-4992-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-4992" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4992', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-4992-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4991</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am inordinately pleased that we agree, at least on this &#039;hot &#039; subject Simon.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am inordinately pleased that we agree, at least on this &#8216;hot &#8216; subject Simon.</p>
<p>Rate This: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-4991" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4991', 'add', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-4991-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-4991" src="http://www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('4991', 'subtract', 'www.boris-johnson.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-4991-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Simon Holledge at The Skakagrall</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4990</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holledge at The Skakagrall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=184#comment-4990</guid>
		<description>Macarnie: I agree with that analysis. That is why I think we should separate church and state and have strictly secular education.

Freedom of religion (and freedom of speech) are essential, but the state should not be involved in church affairs, and church leaders should not hold un-elected political office.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Macarnie: I agree with that analysis. That is why I think we should separate church and state and have strictly secular education.</p>
<p>Freedom of religion (and freedom of speech) are essential, but the state should not be involved in church affairs, and church leaders should not hold un-elected political office.</p>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4989</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Simon: The acts which you cite were indeed the result of religious matters: and of course Christians were involved: in past centuries, Britain was overwhelmingly composed of Christians. There are cases today where one sect is locked in seemingly endless argument against another: both Sects professing Brotherly Love as their war cry. To experience this phenomenon, you must be aware that you will not have to travel too far.

You have in fact just missed the 12th. , so we must wait another year for &quot; The Sash&quot;( incidentally, I was unaware of this particular &quot;difference of opinion&quot;, until I was stranded in Glasgow , one fateful 11 July evening, when my train was delayed for a number of hours. An eyeopener!)

However, my point about the instigators still stands. I believe that these acts were not the result of any stance taken by the ruling hierarchy of whichever religion was concerned in each case; rather the actions are those of separately acting individuals, who believed that there was no other way to prove a point.

I suspect we now approach the crux of the matter in its particularity and totality.
RELIGION,
I was always told, that religion is a particularly personal way in which to express one&#039;s belief in the omni -presence; the omni-prescience, of someone or something supernatural, a supreme being, known  by special &#039;Holy&#039; names or descriptive phrases, special in the sense that it would be recognized  in the religion where it  was conceived..  Religion does not always travel well, rather like some wines. Therefore it is better to drink from a known and trusted source, rather than from a suspect bottle.

All religions claim, in some form or other, their own superiority over other religions, and jealously resent any incursions into their territory. Those religions and the followers thereof, who do tolerate other religious incursions into their previously exclusive territories, almost always end up regretting their misplaced trust.       However, in many parts of the world, new religions are being founded and introduced to a seemingly insatiable and dissatisfied waiting public , and these new ?Religions? are typified by the particular missionary zeal of their followers.  This should not give reason for; or incitement to street demonstrations or even acts of terrorism, sometimes culminating in&#039; war&#039;: supposedly to prove the supremacy of one set of beliefs over another, but it very often does.

Religion is a matter of Conscience; not of Science: of Belief; not of Knowledge; all are merely human attributes.     These &quot;facts&quot;, as seen through the differently focussed eyes of the different disciples, are set to be argued forever, since there is no definitive answer to be found.

The proponents of each branch of, &quot;The One Truth&quot;, are all equally convinced that theirs is the only way to God.   None will brook an argument that they might be mistaken. The inevitable result will be conflict between the Religions; each one vying for the supremacy of THEIR brand of The Truth.

As each religion becomes entrenched in its own monopolistically inclined ideology, there will be &#039;war&#039;: not necessarily  physical war, although that is not unknown( Crusades), but  war nonetheless; in which innocent people might get hurt, mentally as well as physically; in the name of a Supreme Being.

In my opinion there are no innocent religions, there are only innocent victims of their struggle for Power and supremacy. Religion is, or at least should be, a private matter, residing in the heads and hearts of its followers..

Remember the old favourite, often played on a honkey-tonk type of piano at School Assembly:-

Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war; with the Cross----- Etc Etc Etc
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon: The acts which you cite were indeed the result of religious matters: and of course Christians were involved: in past centuries, Britain was overwhelmingly composed of Christians. There are cases today where one sect is locked in seemingly endless argument against another: both Sects professing Brotherly Love as their war cry. To experience this phenomenon, you must be aware that you will not have to travel too far.</p>
<p>You have in fact just missed the 12th. , so we must wait another year for &#8221; The Sash&#8221;( incidentally, I was unaware of this particular &#8220;difference of opinion&#8221;, until I was stranded in Glasgow , one fateful 11 July evening, when my train was delayed for a number of hours. An eyeopener!)</p>
<p>However, my point about the instigators still stands. I believe that these acts were not the result of any stance taken by the ruling hierarchy of whichever religion was concerned in each case; rather the actions are those of separately acting individuals, who believed that there was no other way to prove a point.</p>
<p>I suspect we now approach the crux of the matter in its particularity and totality.<br />
RELIGION,<br />
I was always told, that religion is a particularly personal way in which to express one&#8217;s belief in the omni -presence; the omni-prescience, of someone or something supernatural, a supreme being, known  by special &#8216;Holy&#8217; names or descriptive phrases, special in the sense that it would be recognized  in the religion where it  was conceived..  Religion does not always travel well, rather like some wines. Therefore it is better to drink from a known and trusted source, rather than from a suspect bottle.</p>
<p>All religions claim, in some form or other, their own superiority over other religions, and jealously resent any incursions into their territory. Those religions and the followers thereof, who do tolerate other religious incursions into their previously exclusive territories, almost always end up regretting their misplaced trust.       However, in many parts of the world, new religions are being founded and introduced to a seemingly insatiable and dissatisfied waiting public , and these new ?Religions? are typified by the particular missionary zeal of their followers.  This should not give reason for; or incitement to street demonstrations or even acts of terrorism, sometimes culminating in&#8217; war&#8217;: supposedly to prove the supremacy of one set of beliefs over another, but it very often does.</p>
<p>Religion is a matter of Conscience; not of Science: of Belief; not of Knowledge; all are merely human attributes.     These &#8220;facts&#8221;, as seen through the differently focussed eyes of the different disciples, are set to be argued forever, since there is no definitive answer to be found.</p>
<p>The proponents of each branch of, &#8220;The One Truth&#8221;, are all equally convinced that theirs is the only way to God.   None will brook an argument that they might be mistaken. The inevitable result will be conflict between the Religions; each one vying for the supremacy of THEIR brand of The Truth.</p>
<p>As each religion becomes entrenched in its own monopolistically inclined ideology, there will be &#8216;war&#8217;: not necessarily  physical war, although that is not unknown( Crusades), but  war nonetheless; in which innocent people might get hurt, mentally as well as physically; in the name of a Supreme Being.</p>
<p>In my opinion there are no innocent religions, there are only innocent victims of their struggle for Power and supremacy. Religion is, or at least should be, a private matter, residing in the heads and hearts of its followers..</p>
<p>Remember the old favourite, often played on a honkey-tonk type of piano at School Assembly:-</p>
<p>Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war; with the Cross&#8212;&#8211; Etc Etc Etc</p>
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		<title>By: Macarnie</title>
		<link>http://www.boris-johnson.com/2005/07/08/comment-on-the-recent-tragedy-in-london/comment-page-2/#comment-4988</link>
		<dc:creator>Macarnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://80.82.117.242/?p=184#comment-4988</guid>
		<description>Pithily put,E Tim lawyer
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pithily put,E Tim lawyer</p>
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