Mobile Phones and MMR Vaccines

Those in the knowin' expect a fresh view from Boris on Thursday mornings. Well, today in The Daily Telegraph he recommends that we 'hold our horses' when it comes to all the alarmist news about a radiologist's views on the effect of mobiles - just as we should have done with the MMR panic. Dodgy mobiles? Don't hit the panic button It had to come. It couldn't last. How could we have been so naive as to think that the gods - ever jealous of mankind's technical prowess - would let us get away with an innovation as benign as the mobile phone? Like families across the country, the Johnson household has recently taken a momentous step. We gave a mobile to the 11-year-old, and it was not an easy decision to make. Look here, I said, representing the forces of inchoate conservatism, are you really sure? When I was a nipper, I said, a telephone was a semi-sacred instrument; you had to dial it by actually dialling a dial; the contraption was made of Bakelite and you never really got to have a go on it unless the grown-ups were out, and you could tip-toe softly and phone one of Rupert Murdoch's red-hot chat-lines, which had only just been invented. It never occurred to us, I said, that one day little kids would be wandering around with gizmos smaller than Mars bars that could transmit and receive music, text, film, photos, voice telephony and the latest news from Wall Street. Is it wise? Is it really suitable? I quavered. Aw shut up, they said. The next day I was deputed to buy the machine in question, and of course it is terrific. Your children can be reached wherever they are; they can phone you if they are in trouble or if you have inexplicably forgotten to pick them up from a birthday party. You can send them text messages from the Middle East, reminding them to do their piano practice, and with the fantastic system of text messaging they learn the arts of concision and clarity, not to mention spelling. In fact, the mobile has proved to be such a magnificent machine that I have long thought it was only a matter of time before some bearded genius told us that they were all really emitting gamma rays and scrambling our brains. And there he was, last night, the nation's top radiologist, breaking the bad news on the Beeb. Kiddie Mobile Panic! was the gist of it, and though, like so many of his kind, he was careful to insert all kinds of caveats into his announcement, the public was left in no doubt that it was now the opinion of some scientists that in some cases there was some risk that some unquantified use of the mobile could turn the average kid's brain into something like cauliflower cheese. So what are we supposed to do now? Do we snatch them from the satchels? Do we withdraw all mobile privileges or ration their use? Throughout the country, different households will be taking different views according to instinct and temperament. All I can say is that, in my view - and, incidentally, in the view of the learned radiologist - the jury is out, and while the jury is out, I want us all to consider another, similar case, and see what lessons may be learnt. It is now about six years since the great MMR panic began, with an article in the Lancet saying that there appeared to be a causal link between the mumps, measles and rubella vaccine and autism in small children. It was a perturbing article, by a doctor called Andrew Wakefield, and it was followed by a crescendo of alarm in the papers. Columnist after columnist jumped on the anti-MMR bandwagon, and soon the hysteria was itself epidemic. The Daily Mail raged against MMR. It was monstrous, it said, that Tony Blair would not tell the nation whether baby Leo had been given the controversial jab. Melanie Phillips said it was a national scandal, and Peter Hitchens continues to demand that the nation be given the right to inspect baby Leo's bottom for signs of the needle, though the focus of his wrath has now shifted to the Chancellor's baby. I have a feeling that even our own Alice Thomson, normally so reliable, may have taken a short ride on this frothing bandwagon, and one could see why the cause was so compelling. It must be deeply distressing, for thousands of families, to have a young child stricken by autism. That distress can only be intensified by the thought that you are yourself responsible, for allowing your small child to be given such a controversial jab. It simply can't be good for children, you think to yourself, with your own instinctive conservatism, to have so much potent medicine pumped into them at once; and if someone suggests that there is a link between this invasive treatment and autism, it is very tempting to think that they must be right. And yet - at the risk of offending the many parents for whom this is now a crusade - the evidence of such a link is just not there, and the longer the controversy goes on, the shakier Dr Wakefield's case appears to be. Before you all write me angry letters, I merely observe that the overwhelming opinion of the medical profession is that the real risk, now, is of a resurgence of measles, mumps or rubella, as the media panic has its effect, and the take-up of the vaccine falls away. Speaking personally, I will be very hacked off if I contract mumps (very nasty, apparently, for a chap of my age) while giving a speech at a primary school, just because a bunch of hysterical hacks have stampeded the population away from MMR. And exactly the same point can be made - and I hear the noise of the jury coming back in - about mobile phones. It may be that the new data is truly sinister, and that we need to jettison all the previous evidence; but that was certainly not what the scientist said. Before we all take a sledgehammer to our children's mobiles, let us calculate the rival risks. Which is more scary? The tiny chance that mobiles turn kiddies' brains to taramasalata? Or the chance that without them they could one day get into serious trouble? I know which one worries me more.

76 thoughts on “Mobile Phones and MMR Vaccines”

  1. Ah, hysteria. The favourite past-time of the British public.
    I really must agree, yet again, with Boris on this one. Unless something a hell of a lot more solid is proven, benefits outweigh the risks.
    …Having said that of course, I do believe we should be encouraging the nation’s youth to greatly reduce mobile usage. When I hear of friends making multi-hour long phonecalls from their mobiles, I cringe. And especially if they were at home at the time, could they not have used a landline? Poor ol’ BT.

  2. At last, a politician that is talking sense over the MMR “debate”. For the record – as was stated in a BBC2 documentary on this subject in November last year, Dr Wakefield and his empoyers took out patents for an alternative to the MMR vaccine prior to releasing a press statement that questioned existing MMr vaccine and suggesting that an alternative (like their one) should be used instead. He has since been completely discredited and is now working for some online company in America trying to sell unregulated potions labelled as “health supplements”.

    It is a real shame that hardly any publicity has been given to this recent investigation, leaving it to a govenrment that no-one trusts to try and persuade parents that it was all a load of nonsense in the first place. I know of a parent who refused to have their child vaccinated on the basis of this media scare story (despite my protestations). Her child was later hospitalised as a result of not being vaccinated.

    I really wish that the journalists who whip up these media storms stop and think about what effect they are going to have on the general public. Anyone who releases sensationalist rubbish like the initial MMR reports is either doing it to further their career or is re-hashing a press release on something they don’t understand. Either way, this is not a good enough reason to release a story that ultimately inflicts pain and suffering on young children who have no say in the matter of their protection against life threatening diseases.

    Three cheers for Boris for exposing these media frenzies for what they are. Now please do us all a favour and shout it from the rooftops. You will become a hero to myself and many other fellow scientists who are currently planning to emigrate to a country where sanity prevails..

  3. Good point. Most of the brain-drain is heading over to America, although I can hardly argue that sanity prevails over there. I suppose I’ll just have to pop my test tubes in the bin and join the circus..

  4. I think the parallel is doubtful. Wakefield went off half-cocked, and no serious researchers seem to support his view. But there is certainly evidence of changes in the brain and in DNA among heavy mobile phone users.

    We can all find “parallels” for many many things. It doesn’t mean they’re good ones.

    What is wrong with suggesting that caution is in order until we know more?

    However, as Melissa points out, many children use their phones for texting. The transmission time, consequently, is short and the handset is not held against the head.

  5. Something is comming to get you and it’s normally a science report written by a boffin. Great B-movie idea in some of these you know. How about demotic cheerleaders who infect the citizens of this fair land with lazer rays that come from their mobile phones. COOL…

  6. Oops, sorry Melissa, got the wrong blogger there. Nothing worse than having one’s work attributed to someone else. My apologies.

  7. > Not sure about this one Boris – are you sure txt-msging imprvs chldrn’s splling?

    How did I miss that part of the article? Gah!
    I really cannot stand ‘txt spk’. It may as well be Japanese as far as I can understand it. I type all my text messages in the Queen’s English.
    I iz nt dwn wiv da kidz.

  8. Aaron – ‘Japanese as far as I can understand it.’

    At the rate that some of the younger teenagers are eating up japanese popular culture at the moment esp: manga, amine film, and graphic novels etc. the langauge they are talking and texting in may well be a version of modern japanese.

  9. Agreed with the article as far as it goes, but Britain is a strange place when it come to adopting (or not adopting) technology.

    Is there any country (except Japan) where people (and particularly kids) have so much dexterity at operating these beguiling little mobile devices and so little ability at using computers?

    Judging by Edinburgh University postgraduates, many British students (unlike the Americans) still don’t own their computers, so I guess the number of high school kids with them must be minimal, and I suppose all the exams must still be handwritten in British schools. Is that right?

  10. You’re not actually a blogger, Boris. You’re a wonderful columnist, sure. You have a web-site, sure. But you’re not a blogger. Nothing wrong with that. I’d rather be a columnist than a blogger. But let’s get it clear – what you’re doing is not blogging.

  11. > How did I miss that part of the article? Gah!
    I really cannot stand ‘txt spk’

    There’s nothing particularly new about using abbreviated forms of words when space is limited or repetition becomes tiresome. Such abbreviations have cropped up in different contexts time and again. For example, I’m a “usr” on my computer which lists files with a “ls” command and removes them with a “rm” one.

    It’s not just the desire to get more in your message. It’s tiresome keying words on a tiny mobile phone keypad when it is frequently necessary to hit a key three or more times to get the character you want. Small wonder the children used to do as they did.

    But I expect Boris’s son’s phone has “predictive text” – all the new one’s have. It obviates the need. It should also draw his attention to the spelling of words, because as you type it feeds back its suggestions, and you can also cycle through different ones.

    Of course, Boris may end up receiving rather cyptic messages:

    “Does nun say I have to come back for dinner?”

  12. Look, Benson, I’d rather be a columnist then a blogger. But have you ever tried kicking the doors down in the jounalistic game. At the moment I can’t even get my local papers to take some of my work, so even the chance, alas, of getting in to the Spectator is slim – well shall we say non-existant. This is the writers lot at the begining of the 21st century. But at lest I have Plymouth Blog. I’d rather have that then nothing at all.

  13. ‘Benson, have you never heard of blogging by proxy?’

    I don’t think he has DR C. But I have to give it to Mellissa she does a wonderful job – full of wit and sparkle.

  14. Our household is yet to ration the use of mobile phones, infact our household has yet to mention the ‘scare’.

    The main thing on our minds is our lack of running water, not the greater chances of running brains…

    yours,

    Joe, Hexham

  15. Benson: I’d be inclined to take your opinion more seriously had you provided a URL with your comment… that perhaps led to your own weblog.

    Bloris has blogged. He is therefore a blogger. He has also promised to do it more and I for one am very happy about that.

    Boris is a busy man. But he has Melissa. Melissa is a fine blogger, I’m sure you will all agree and a fine spokesperson for Boris I’m sure *he* will agree.

    Melissa also blogs Boris’s articles so anybody may comment on them. It also opens these articles up to things such as trackback. That’s bloggage, too.

    As a blogger of 3 years who has written a few articles on blogging, featured in many articles on blogging, and produced quite a few weblogs including this one, it is my considered opinion that you may very well have your head up your arse.

  16. Tim Ireland – What a great example of comment bloggage, and Bloggerheads is such a sweet site.

    Of course what Benson does not seem to realise is that not only can blogs bewritten by proxy but also out there in the Blogsphere collective and group blogs do exist. So from this point of view Boris’s site is a group blog. All the main entries are written by Millissa and Boris and then we throw are own ramblings up here as well. Mass blogging must be well on the way.

  17. Tim!

    A big hug – you are by a long way the funniest man around !!!

    Nick – people like you are the fuel that keep us going – thank you!

  18. Good point Boris, the British press love nothing better than to whip up something out of nothing and have everyone running scared. Relying on them you would die, because whats bad for you one week is great for you the next, what one week they say gives cancer, the next will help you live longer. They are in the main a pitiful bunch.
    Apart from at the times, of course 😉
    -Pete

  19. It’s also lovely to note that the offending photo of Prince Harry was taken last weekend, but The Scum chose yesterday to release it.

    Result? Everybody is shouting about Nazis, and not about the fact that we’ve stopped looking for evidence of an intention to maintain weapons of mass destruction related programmes.

  20. Given that only 6 out of 659 (are those figures right?) MPs are blogging, Boris and Melissa’s lively, friendly blog is obviously progressive.

    Incidentally, there isn’t one MSP at Holyrood who is blogging. (My own ‘Skakagrall’ is the only active one for the SNP.)

  21. I am amazed at the amount of press coverage being given to whine about poor old Harry’s party outfits and if I hear one more ‘call for a public apology’ grrr… for heavens sake. He a young boy and probably thought it would be a good giggle (as many of us would have I’m sure) and yes he is third in line to the throne , blah blah blah , but he also needs to live. You’d think that there were more important issues to hash out on the news?

  22. Benson: Bless you for attempting controversy. But this is Boris Johnson’s weblog. Boris Johnson writes on it. That, by default, makes him a blogger, in the same way that writing newspaper columns makes him a columnist. A columnist, in fact, makes the best kind of blogger – they’re more likely to write something we want to read, and Boris is no exception here. I’ll wager that his columns, and by proxy his weblog posts, are among the most anticipated every week. And the fragrant Melissa makes a fine replacement while Boris is going out and doing all the things we love to read about in his posts and columns. So Benson, in conclusion: I would very much like to second Tim Ireland’s considered arse-related opinion of you.

  23. Benson – It would seem that you have activated Boris Johnson’s personal defense squad – who have well and truely kicked your sorry state of a butt. All of them are well trained in black belt put downs designed to keep the likes of you out of the way. Bruce Lee would be proud. Do not pass go – do not collect

  24. I know I’m a participant in this defence, but please allow me to take a step back long enough to point out that this is how comments can – to a point – become self-regulating (thereby easing the need for moderation).

    This is what happens when you establish a community via the comments feature. Of a weblog.

  25. Melissa

    I know it is a bit naive but it would be nice if we got (more) of a sense of Boris’s take on breaking news. For example Prince Harry, which broke too late get into this week’Speccie, would have been a good subject. Likewise Boris’s view on the news that we areb going to have means tested fines in the criminal justice system again is another worthy topic. I fear Boris has to get everything double checked / approved with Central Office. Either way it’s a shame. It would also be handy if this site could be configured in such a way that topics which are off Boris’s chosen one but still of immediate interest could be discussed without using the on topic thread.

  26. TOTALLY agree with Boris on one thing here. Text messaging is brilliant. However in response to the standard gags about txt mssgng bng fr illitr8s, I think Boris is probably talking about PREDICTIVE text messaging – an awesome bit of programming that goes to a lot of trouble to make sure all the words are spelt exactly right, and allows you to compose fully punctuated coherent sentences without spending all day doing it. These days those of us who are old enough go all glassy-eyed at the mention of the telegram, which made concise sentence construction a bit of an art form on account of if you went on too long you got charged for it. Now we have predictive texting, which does much the same thing, except the charge comes in the form of finger fatigue.

  27. Esbonio

    Thanx for your comments and advice.

    Boris does comment on a lot of stuff but there has to be limit … I am sure he would like to comment on Prince Harry and means-tested fines for criminal justice. On the former he would be quite relaxed about the Royals at a private party – on the latter he would study the proposals in depth.

    Please do not fear that he has to have everything double-checked: he isn’t the ‘check-every-t-is-crossed-and-every-i-dotted’ type. He’s quite laissez-faire – perhaps why the youth love him.

    More to come from Boris soon…no doubt

    All your contributions help to form opinion and fuel the debate!

    Thank you again for your input – keep coming back with more points of view – challenge! and provoke! is the mantra on these sites

    ps I’m sorry but not too sure what you mean in your last sentence

  28. ‘He’s quite laissez-faire – perhaps why the youth love him.’

    A Boris Johnson youth sub-culture – now that’s an intesting thought. The youth of this country reading The Spectator rather then the NME or Rolling Stone. Teddy Boys, Hippies, Mods, Punks, and Goths can eat their hearts out. There a new sub-culture on the bloc signified by blond floppy hair. The rest of them are so lost in the 20th century. The Boris Johnson Sub-cult so 21st – go Johnsoncult.

  29. As for mean tested fines, I think they are inimical to justice and a vote loser.

    I entirely agree with the sentiments about it being a private party.

    On the subject of kids and mobile phones, what’s wrong with a couple of tins and a piece of string strung tightly between them?

  30. It would also be handy if this site could be configured in such a way that topics which are off Boris’s chosen one but still of immediate interest could be discussed without using the on topic thread.

    I think E means that it’s a shame that we have to go ‘off the subject’ to talk about current things, like Harry – we have to ‘hijack’ another thread, in this case the mobile phone thread. So this would in effect be less like a blog lead by Boris and Melissa and more of a place where anyone could start any topic.

    It would be nice, but then would of course mean we could start threads about what we had for lunch, and who won the football last night (yawn)..

  31. “A Boris Johnson youth sub-culture”

    Lol, I know quite a few youths who really like Boris. In fact I may even count as one myself depending how you define youth 😉
    But I have spoke to a number of college girls who really like boris! (I do wonder what they mean by like mind!)

  32. Hi Wifey

    I have no desire to discuss the pork pie I had for lunch (which reminds me what are we going to eat tonight) nor the football or Big Brother. Nor do I particularly want to hijack threads; it would be useful thetrefore if issues could be drawn to Boris’s attention which are off topic without “spoiling” the thread. Otherwise Boris, whilst getting feedback on his threads, may miss out on other issues which people and voters have views on.

  33. Esbonio – think of all of this as a running commentary on society as a whole: I mean look what there is here: comments on the issuies of MMR and radiation of Mobile Phones, this led to a chat about text messaging, spelling and education. All of this fed in to an arguement on the nature of blogging, which all adds up to a discourse of the way technology affects the human self with society. And to add to this there have been some jokes, and witting items thrown in for free.

    Now – what all this tells us is that one cannot put indievidual topics in to small compartments for the simple reasons is that every discourse is conceted to the whole. Therefore it is better to read this whole text as some kind of stream of consciouseness: a babble of voices debating together as one, rather then a group of individuals trying to outdo one another in unproductive argument.

  34. Sorry for the spelling and mistakes in my last post: it’s the end of the day and every thing goes down hill from there. To long typing and proof reading. The command I once had of the language has just gone right out of the window!

  35. Thanks for you comment.

    I entirely agree with you that it really is tedious when a “group of individual try.. to out do one another in unproductive argument”. I also empathise with the stream of consciousness point. I simply wanted to make the point that given Boris’s esteemed position it would be helpful to ensure issues could be drawn to his attention other than writing / e-mailing him direct.

  36. Nick, I like your take on blogs! I’ve been in some really long threads that were totally nothing to do with the post, but they are good!

  37. Esbonio – I think I may have taken abit of a long way around there. Just the way I tend to approach ideas.

    ‘it would be helpful to ensure issues could be drawn to his attention other than writing / e-mailing him direct. ‘

    If your talking about constituency work as a MP it may be better to write to the constituency office as with all MP’s. Boris is bound to have a clinic once a week for his constitents.

  38. ‘Nick, I like your take on blogs! I’ve been in some really long threads that were totally nothing to do with the post, but they are good!’

    Thanks Peter J

  39. re: blogs – Going off topic is always good, but sometimes a little confusing on a comment section like this, without threads.

    Peter – I know quite a few young people who like Boris too, and am fairly certain I count as one of them 🙂 Only have to look at the Boris Johnson Fanclub to see he has a following!

  40. We are not blogging just to chase newspaper headlines, otherwise B-J.com will be no better than the BBC ‘Have your say’. Surely Boris and Melissa never intended that? They have their priorities, just as we do. Boris’s thoughts are expressed with originality and stimulate discussion. That’s good.

    Traditional print and broadcasting media are inadequate. I like the idea of being part of a community actively searching out new information and ideas, re-shaping and developing them. This is not so difficult. There is a huge amount of international news on all manner of topics that never makes it into the British media, and it’s easily accessible.

  41. > Another boy band bites the dust: will not be missed. May be the man himself Boris Johnson should put an LP out?

    Only if we can include subliminal messages educating the nation of REAL politics, not The Sun’s take on it all. 😉

  42. There is most definitely a Boris youth culture! Myself and many of my friends are in agreement that the Conservatives would stand a much greater chance of winning the up-coming election (given that Labour doesn’t collapse under its own weight, which, looking at them, is a distinct possibility) if Boris was in a prominent position, even perhaps leader. If this isn’t a youth culture, i don’t know what is, especially considering he is virtually the only politician we speak of in a favourable light.

  43. David – if this sub-cult had muisc it would be provided by Mot the Hopple ‘ All The Young Dudes.’ Great first line ‘All the young dudes carry the news.’

  44. If heavy moblie phone users do melt their brains–I say it’s Uncle Darwin in action, culling perhaps not the weakest but certainly the most annoying. I hope it works double inside a bus.

    Nice to have read the previous entry even belatedly. It will be good to read some new, blog-specific material here & not just pastes of work really intended for elsewhere.

    I am now afraid to blog, as most of the content of my journal involved my work in some way. Someone who works for my company was rather famously sacked recently for blogging about his work, and not even in a seriously vituperative way–just an occasional mild grizzle. Apparently we must all tread very carefully indeed or the fiercest of penalties will ensue. Having done a heavy and hasty edit of the past three years’ entries, I’m now wondering if I can safely say anything at all online now.

    Suffice to say I’m doing lots and lots of reading 😉

  45. Lori – it depends I think on how far you take the arguement for freedom of speech. Of course these days, with the baning of a play in Birmingham and the protests over JS oprea on the beeb, we seem to be entering a new age where censor ship could become the norm even if a work of art causes the slightest offence. Personally I hope that this never comes about for it would be one of the most regressive discourse’s to hit our culture for years – I want the right to see films I want to see and read D H lawerence and Henry Miller if I so wish. But then there is also that thing called libel and slander on the individual which is a totaly differnt thing and can bring in nasty hords of lawyers and Max Clifford to add to the slanging match. This kind of thing tends to hit Privaite Eye on a regular basis. So may be at this level one has to be a bit more carful over what one writes just incase one has the facts wrong. Then there’s that space between facts and interpretaion which raises even more questions. The fact is this could go on and on. In the end one has to be slightly careful over what one writes. After all an ugly lawyer may well cost a stack of money.

  46. Have just been watching News24 about the tax cuts that Mr Howard wants to make. Firstly it’s nice to see the tory party put it’s cards on the table at last – or at lest half of a hand. But I still have reservations. Howard wants to drop tax and still keep the same rate of expenditure up on the NHS and social services etc while pruning back White Hall. I don’t know if it adds up? But this does not have to do with the figures themselve but the question of trust in Mr Howard. I mean this was one of the men that spent most of the early ninties over seeing the decay when the last bubble burst. And now we find that Robert Jackson has moved over to the other side of the house! Has the liberal end of the tory given in to the parties right wing? They could have? So in the long term does this mean that the conservative party front bench will swing even further to the right? They may well do! In the end I don’t think the election will be fought on the subject of taxs, but on trust, and I know people do not trust Blair that much these days after Iraq, but they neither trust Mr Howard – so with no other option to vote for I can see Blair getting back in. A vote for the devil we know rather then the Devil we don’t

  47. > If heavy moblie phone users do melt their brains–I say it’s Uncle Darwin in action, culling perhaps not the weakest but certainly the most annoying. I hope it works double inside a bus.

    Very good – I know just what you mean … although, notwithstanding the “Darwin Awards” –

    http://www.darwinawards.com/

    – Natural Selection is purposeless. Those not fitted to the particular conditons of their environment tend to disappear from the gene pool before they can replicate themselves. However, if the conditions change, those who were well-adapted to the previous conditions can be ill-fitted to the current ones. The dinosaurs lasted longer than we have, and they were even stupider than Madonna. However, like her, they were ideally fitted to their environment.

    Al Capone, Eminem, and Gordon Brown can all thrive in certain conditions … unfortunately.

  48. It’s just a question of managing your child’s use of the phone, when they’re young.

    Let them text away to their little heart’s content, but keep voice calls (the potentially damaging use) for emergency use only.

    This has the added benefit of being a lot cheaper.

    Russell

  49. ‘Al Capone, Eminem, and Gordon Brown can all thrive in certain conditions … unfortunately.’

    Micheal – very droll, very droll indeed:)

  50. Boris is of course totally correct as far as MMR is concerned. I for one had no qualms about my daughter having the jab, she had a needle in her quicker than I could say Jack Spratt, I considered measles, mumps and Gerry Measles far more of a risk.
    Mobiles however, Nokia especially I believe do fry your brain or whatever else the phone happens to be near. Makes me feel very funny.

  51. I have to agree with Jimbola on this one – the MMR is safe. Mobile phones safety hasn’t yet been proven either way, and I do think there is some evidence that they may be harmful. However, the advantages of knowing what your kids are up to and giving them a ‘safety net’ does negate in a some way the possible risks. I’ll be going along with the ‘put them on pay-as-you-go packages’ and encouraging texting until proven otherwise..

  52. Ooh wifey, I bought your book about tea and biscuits over christmas. Very nice, I was shamed by my ignorance over jammy dodgers/ jam sponge sandwiches, thankyou for sorting this out for me.

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